Getting rod of Barbarians

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Spiderjeru
While I think barbs can tend to come in slightly ridiculous numbers, I'm glad to learn that they prefer player targets. The computer is hopelessly incompetent at waging war as it is - I'd be pretty upset if the barbs won a domination victory.

[Older than Dirt]

I have often been irked because a barbarian unit has attacked an AI unit instead of my unit when I was trying to get my unit promoted. They make for great training of your units so you can launch your first war with level 10 experience units. Overall, barbarians may provide an edge for the human player - at least on normal barbarian activity level. They can certainly cause great harm to the AI civs.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Older than Dirt
They can certainly cause great harm to the AI civs.

I had one game where they captured Egypt's capital. I didn't complete the game to see how she turned out, but that would have been a major blow so early in the game.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Badtz Maru
So, you're claiming that something is 'hard coded' based on a bunch of gameplay anecdotes distorted by observer bias, despite the fact that the people who actually coded the game say this is not so.

That is called induction. When you have a whole bunch of data points that can have a nice curve links them up, then you may have something on your hands. Granted, an induction is not as strong as a deduction, but it is better than empty words.

Originally posted by Badtz Maru
Why would the programmers lie about this when they don't deny the other advantages the AI gets?

I don't think recalling that they denied flat out that barbarians will pick on the player with the lowest bonus against barbarian units.

As I said before, I have tried putting a barbarian unit directly on top of a gold mine owned by a computer player via the World Builder, but the unit did not pillage the gold mine in the following turn. Perhaps as Blake pointed out, this unit had some sort of "mission" given to it (e.g. attack some player's military unit), but it did make me somewhat suspicious.

I may try the same experiment a number of times later.

[Nacht]

In my last finished game, referred to in the barren land thread the replay showed that the AI's had some serious problems with the barbarians.

To sum it up:
- Elizabeth lost her third city to barbarians
- Capac lost his second and third city to barbarians, captured some far away barb city and lost it again to the barbarians
- Caesar at a four city stage, lost his capitol to the barbarians

So much for AI's not being targetted by barbarians.

Add to that that mao and alex had prolonged early wars and cyrus and catherine had lousy starting positions and you have one explanation why I did so incredibly well in that game.

[marvinkosh]

In a game I'm playing at the moment, Alexander (with whom I have warred several times since meeting) managed to evade my Galleys and slip a Settler and Archer onto an island that I had wanted to colonise.

Well I goes back to get my Settler and defensive units anyway, and a spy a little goody hut on the coast of this island. Turns out, the village was hostile, and poor Alexander was revealed standing in the square next to the goody hut, his Settler unit having somehow become separated from the Archer.

Needless to say, I laughed evilly when he plonked down a city right there and the barbarians sauntered in behind and burned it to the ground. The unit I had sent in to investigate the village got scratched by a warrior's club but lived to tell the tale.

So I can't say that barbarians discriminate aginast humans per se. An undefended city is always more attractive no matter what else is nearby.

[Nacht]

I doubt Julius' capitol was unprotected

[Overcast32]

yeah it always seems about that time (1100 AD or so) when you get Barbarian invasions.

I usually play on Noble skill level - I like a challenge, but essentially the AI is just allow to "cheat" on higher skill levels - since it's really just numbers that are tilted towards the AI helping it gain ground. The AI itself is no smarter at those levels.

I still find the game a challenge at Noble - I almost always run at Marathon speed too, I like a drawn-out game.

Right around 1400 BC, it's a good idea to get at least 2/3 units in each city and a couple units can fortify on roads, giving them a good position to intercept incoming Barbarians (this is particualrly true if you have horses by this time - Chariots and Horse Archers can do wonders with heading off AI units intent on destroying your improvements.) it's also *quite* helpful to post a guard on some of your more important improvements - such as Iron Mines, Horse Pastures, etc..

Lots of solid expansion and destruction of a few Barbarian cities almost always seem to slow the Barbarian Hordes...

The barbarians seem to like those towns that are on the edges of your borders, especially if they are more like outposts than part of your main country - if you know what I mean there

[Willem]

Originally posted by Overcast32
... and a couple units can fortify on roads, giving them a good position to intercept incoming Barbarians (this is particualrly true if you have horses by this time - Chariots and Horse Archers can do wonders with heading off AI units intent on destroying your improvements.) it's also *quite* helpful to post a guard on some of your more important improvements - such as Iron Mines, Horse Pastures, etc..

You're better off putting your forces just outside your borders to intercept them before they reach your territory. That way there's time to adjust if one of them gets lucky. The best way is sticking Archers on Hills. Not only do they provide a tough defense, but they help push back the fog of war which creates the barbs in the first place.

[marvinkosh]

Yup. When I get Axemen, I plant them on the hills with the Archers too, or they lurk about in the trees. Reason, being, if my Axeman has a very close fight, then he can count on a little bit of cover. Once you have a decent road network it's less important where exactly you station your troops and more important where they can actually get to in a turn.

If you're playing Continents, or some variant thereof, it's actually good to have an early neighbour because the fog of war is (in theory at least) diminished twice as much.

[Ned]

In the initial barb rush, I usually push them back by placing archers all about on wooded hills. Later, I build "outpost" cities that invite attack. These I fortify as best I can with walls and units. The barbs will usually attack the first city they encounter thus leaving the heartland protected. Finally, stationing cheap units like scouts and explorers on the frontier helps eliminate the fog of war problem.

[marvinkosh]

One positive advantage of having a 'barbarian zone' - that is, a bit of fog of war in an undesirable city location - is that you can rotate your troops around and make sure they all get some battle experience. Of course with barbarians the XP is capped at 10, but that can still make for a powerful unit.

Crossbowmen in particular can make a killing taking out Axemen and Swords.

[marvinkosh]

One other thing I would say is that the AI Civs do struggle against barbarians even when they're on par with humans. Again in the game I'm currently playing (with the Civs each having lots of fog of war to contend with) I got Open Borders with some of my neighbours and Egypt has lost Memphis (a city with some decent culture output) to them, with no sign that they'll be taking it back soon.

Ideally you want to meet the barbs head-on and use them to harden your troops, whereas the AI just seems to be crumbling before them, offering only a limited defence. Which is why when I look at the power chart, I'm top of the scale

This is one instance where the AI should reduce spending on research and focus on building an effective army, even if it does cost gpt to maintain and/or supply, it's insurance against having worker-hammers flushed away. Make 'em draw a line in the dirt and hold it against the invaders.

For a human player it's easy to see that spotting the enemy long before they reach cultural borders grants valuable time to mobilise the defence. Giving a (Horse Archer/Chariot) unit the Visibility promotion to further improve spotting distance makes the job easier.

[LodeRunner31]

Not sure if this is true or not, but sometimes it seems like a blessing when a barb city is founded near you. It actually seems to cut down on the number of spawned roaming barbs.

Perhaps that is because of there won't be anything spawning in the 9 squares the city occupies. Instead, in that area, the barbs need to build their units.

[Willem]

Originally posted by LodeRunner31
Not sure if this is true or not, but sometimes it seems like a blessing when a barb city is founded near you. It actually seems to cut down on the number of spawned roaming barbs.

Perhaps that is because of there won't be anything spawning in the 9 squares the city occupies. Instead, in that area, the barbs need to build their units.

The barb attacks definitely slow down once they start building cities, at least for the most part. You do still get spurts of activity happening though, only then it's with tougher units, like Axemen and Swordsmen.