Using "hopeless" leaders

[couerdelion]

Amry good - tech bad!!

I’m finding that commerce and tech is quite a problem for Napoleon. With a normal start the slingshot can be a significant challenge because of the need for some decent commerce to drive the charge to CoL and this often requires some detours along the way.

Made a start and got cows and trees – lots of trees. Also got the Mongols, Aztecs and Tokugawa on my continent and the first two were not at all happy that I killed their scouts when I met them. It’s an easy promotion and you rarely find that a rival will mount a serious retaliation if you hit them that early. It does also beg the question that, if you kill a scout, how does the civilisation know it was you

So Kublai Khan is my immediate neighbour and not only does he get the creative defense bonus but he also seems to be building all his cities on hills. I suspect that his empire will be a tough nut to crack and probably won’t finish it before he gets Horseback Riding. Still having lots of fun with the barbarians joining my second war with the Mongols. Mongolian chariots, barb archers and warriors are cheap promotion for my axemen.

Still researching Meditation in 900 BC is not good. I rather think I will need to start again with an alternative plan and maybe take a little more time thinking about the different tech routes.

[Fallenhero]

Perhaps the Pyramids are the way to go.
The higher population from Rep will mean more commerce and this will offset that lack of good economic leader traits.

[PaganPaulwhisky]

Yeah, Early conquest plus pyramids seems like a much better option for napolean than an oracle slingshot as this will slow you down too much at the beginning. I don't see why so many players insist on doing slingshots every single game even with conquest oriented leaders. Its a good strategy, but too many people are defaulting to this instead of exploring other options. That's the idea of this thread anyway.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Fallenhero
Perhaps the Pyramids are the way to go.
The higher population from Rep will mean more commerce and this will offset that lack of good economic leader traits.

It was certainly an early consideration of mine to try the Oracle -> Metal Casting -> Forge -> Pyramids line but this still requires food to support the engineers while Pyramids are really only of much value if you can support the specialists.

Therein lies the problem. Insufficient food for the specialists that make the Pyramids worthwhile.

[Swiss Pauli]

Boney has the pre-reqs for Pottery so that's the source of income (I have 2 FP in my capital).

My idea post-CS Sling was to fight a limited cats and axes war (v Toku) and then use BUR and Great Library to power a beeline to Gunpowder. Then see whether I can launch a major campaign with Muskeeters.

I'm not a great fan of the Pyramids, but I might have gone for them had Toku not settled near the stone.

[couerdelion]

When pottery is no use

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
Boney has the pre-reqs for Pottery so that's the source of income (I have 2 FP in my capital).

Before I started I had highlighted Fishing or Pottery as being the two early supplements to commerce (probably not both). I did actually get crabs in my fat cross for Paris but with no access to the coast I had no reason to detour to fishing. I really should get that screenshot of Paris which may explain why all I could see were the hoards of Axemen charging out to war.

The rest of the tiles were almost all forests so pottery could only come into play after bronzeworking. I think it would have made a good candidate for a poor start because there really was no sensible way of generating the extra cash needed to fund an army or drive research. What made matters worse was there was not a lot of decent land in the immediate vicinity.

[couerdelion]

What about adding this to a forum post

Originally posted by Flamer(fin)
just press print screen and paste it in some graf.program

So this will get me a picture but how do I post it?

[Fallenhero]

Therein lies the problem. Insufficient food for the specialists that make the Pyramids worthwhile.
[/QUOTE]


I built stonehenge and the pyramids in the game I started last night. I never developed a GP factory either but I continued to grow and the extra pop kept me close Tech wise. I went deep into a hole when I attack my weakest neighbor and 2 barb cities but ground it out until I could build courthouses and raise the slider.

Now, I'm racing Cathy to liberalism and building Musketeers for my next expansion.

[proviisori]

Re: What about adding this to a forum post

Originally posted by couerdelion

So this will get me a picture but how do I post it?

You can use Apolytons upload service or i.e. imageshack.
...or you can use your own homepage space if you have one.
I haven't used the apo upload service so I don't know much about it. There is surely some instructions how to use it.

Then you just use "IMG" button when posting and type http address to the picture.

Simple as that

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
Started a trial with boney last night (monarch/epic) and after a couple of rerolls got an OK start (low on hammers but that's hardly unusual).

Was going for an Oracle slingshot and was shocked to found Bhuddism in 2200BC. Decided on a CS sling to fund research (as opposed to farseer for production).

The fun part will be dealing with my near nieghbours - Alex, Toku and Cathy. Roosey, Cyrus and Mao lie on the far side of Cathy and Toku. I've annoyed Cathy by not giving her pottery and Toku has picked up Bhuddism from Alex. Looks like I'll need to get back in Cathy's good books ASAP.

It's all gone (too?) well from here: Toku gswitched to Bhuddism so I moved to attack Alex, aiming to take the Bhuddist and Jewish holy cities. Cathy and Mao also went Bhuddist.

I saw from some OB spying that Alex had only archers and I'd seen 1 chariot in the north. Some Iron was outside the Jewish holy city and once the worker started to mine it, it was time for war.

5 turns or so later, Toku demands I cease trading with Cyrus which I ignore but I note that he's now annoyed and has moved an archer onto the border. Sure enough, he declares war next turn but a check of the power graph tells me it's not worth bribing Cathy to attack him. Not yet, anyway.

Alex's holy cities fall easily enough and he only sends out that northern chariot to counter. He cuts his losses and accepts peace fairly quickly.

Toku's DoW was hasty (as usual), after I zap his archer there's a long silence, so that my Greek campaign units can redeploy and new cats get built. Eventually, a couple of chariots appear but get destroyed immediately.

I take 2 jungle cities and I'd like peace for economic reasons but Toku's not talking, so I send an Aeman/WE combo to check out another city. It's poorly defended, but I wait for reinforcements and take it a few turns later.

During the war, I chopped the Great Library and some forges and then speed-built the Colossus thanks to an über-chop. Got the Mahabodhi which has sorted out my creaking economy. Now researching feudalism, so the plan is polish off Alex and Toku with Musketeers.

[Swiss Pauli]

Having gone a fair bit further with Boney, he's still a bit of crappy leader. The Musketeer is underpowered as a UU - their best use is probably as a city defender that can cover a sneak attack quickly but that's not much of a selling point.

His AGG trait points to taking cities but given that he doesn't have ORG, CRE, or SPI he has a tough time in digesting his conquests. A religion with its shrine seems the best way of getting in some cash to offset maintenance.

The wonders are nice to have but don't compensate the lack of trait synergy.

[couerdelion]

I think the costs of expansion are a problem for Napoleon although earlier it’s likely to be health. I’m finding it difficult to absorb new cities with high unit costs, civic costs and city maintenance.

[Vynd]

I happen to be playing a game with Napoleon atm. Small highlands map, Monarch level. It's the early 1900s and it looks like it'll come down to whether or not I can get domination before the Incas or Persians can build a space ship.

Anyway, I'm finding Napoleon to be a perfectly good leader for a conquest or domination game. If people are finding him weak it's probably because they are trying to play him like he's one of the other popular leaders. If you try and play him like Mansa Musa and spam cottages everywhere then you're bound to be disappointed.

With Industrious you can get plenty of wonders without chopping or special resources. So save your trees, and base your expansion and development plans around things like choke-points or access to health resources instead of getting stone hooked up early.

Focus your cities more towards production than you usually would. Sure you'll still need gold, but it's not like you can keep up with the Financial leaders in tech anyway. Instead make good use of your Aggressive trait and your productive cities to get a large, high-quality, army. And then whomp on people! You can take out Riflemen with Catapults and Knights if you bring enough of them and they're all level 2-3 out of the box.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Vynd Sure you'll still need gold, but it's not like you can keep up with the Financial leaders in tech anyway. Instead make good use of your Aggressive trait and your productive cities to get a large, high-quality, army.

What do you mean by a large, high-quality army? Is this quality from the +8 XP bonuses from civics/barracks rather than quality from superior technology.

I can certainly see the benefits in extra promotions which allow even small stacks to be difficult to break but would prefer to be fighting with better base units.

One thing Napoleon is not weak on is building military units but his weaknesses are health and money. Somehow you need to be able to pay for all those units and vassalage will not be enough.

p.s. I tend to “cottage” just the river tiles. Cities without a river will generally become part of the war-machine to churn out units.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli His AGG trait points to taking cities but given that he doesn't have ORG, CRE, or SPI he has a tough time in digesting his conquests.

Well, that seems historically accurate.