Friends, enemies, anyone know how it works?

[Rook]

Anyone know how the math of diplomcy works?

Say for simplicity Isabella and you are friends and have been so for 1000 years. You share the same religion and civics and everything is just peachy.

Now say after 1000 years you just decide to nuke her capital. I haven't tried this, but I am assuming she instantly becomes furious with you. Or does she?


All we get to know about Isabella is some positives and negatives and a general feeling, but we can't actually see what the math behind the numbers is. We know what the numbers mean in combat, why not diplomacy?

Is it accumalitive? If the total of Isabella's diplomacy score for me is +10 after 100 turns do I have +1000 pts of love? If so, what effect would nuking her capital be?

Maybe its a what you see is what you get kind of thing. If Isabella has +10 things to say about you and -5 things to say about you, that adds up to +5 which maybe translates into being "Pleased." But then that can't be it either because we don't see instant changes. If someone is furious at you and you make changes to counter this, it takes time for them to forget the past.

I'm sure the answer is much more complicated than what I am thinking. I'd like to know if anyone has figured it out or just has some theories to share.

[Solver]

What you see in the mouseover help is the actual number. If the relations show factors of +4, +2, +1, -3 and -1, then it's a total of +3. Which will give Cautious relations most of the time at least.

You can't really get a Pleased civ to be Furious immediately. If you have very good relations and nuke their capital, that will add a factor of approximately -6. -3 for "You declared war on us", -2 for "You nuked us". Then there's also the "This war spoils our relaitonship" which grows with time (it's more compliciated than that actually), but I think it would start off as -1 or -2 if you nuke. So you spoil your relations by about -6, which is enough to make a Pleased civ Annoyed.

Is it accumalitive? If the total of Isabella's diplomacy score for me is +10 after 100 turns do I have +1000 pts of love?

There's nothing cumulative about the system. If you see +10 there, then your relations right now are +10, and that's it.

There are, indeed, not instant changes to many things. First, some effects take time to accumulate. For example, if you share religions, it will start as +1, but it will grow to a bigger number with time. Likewise, "This war spoils our relationship" becomes worse and worse with time.

Secondly, leaders also forget things. Then the modifier is basically just gone. If you reject someone's tribute demands, they will eventually forget - probably. This is determined by a dice roll each turn.

[Rook]

OK you shed some light on it for me, but I am curious. If I have major great relations with a civ totalling say +15 or so. (I'm sure I can find some combination that works) Anyway, I nuke them out of the blue. As you point out, this is a -6 to the relations. That would add up to +9. The Civ would still be pleased? It doesn't make sense. That should be instant furious. They should have a "You betrayed our friendship -10" modifier.

[Amarsir]

I am admittedly too lazy to verify this at the moment, but I believe when the war starts it erases most if not all of the greens. You definitely lose the "lasting peace" bonus, also open borders are no longer bringing your people closer together. You may keep the religion one but accordingly your citizens will be unhappier fighting their brothers and sisters in the faith.

All told you lose a decent number of positives in addition to picking up some big negatives, so it's a pretty hefty swing. Still, once the war ends you can get back to positive over time if you play it correctly, so it seems balanced to me.

[Saurus]

Originally posted by Rook
OK you shed some light on it for me, but I am curious. If I have major great relations with a civ totalling say +15 or so. (I'm sure I can find some combination that works) Anyway, I nuke them out of the blue. As you point out, this is a -6 to the relations. That would add up to +9. The Civ would still be pleased? It doesn't make sense. That should be instant furious. They should have a "You betrayed our friendship -10" modifier.

I have at least one instant were I was betrayed by an A.I civ and our relations remained at "pleased" even during the war.

I think it was something like this:
+4 (you have wisely chosen our civics)
+2 (our trade relation have been fair and forthright)
+5 (we care for our brothers and sisters of thefaith )

-3 (This war spoils our relationship)

= +8

I agree that this does not make any sence at all, yet is does happen.

[Rook]

I'll have to try it out next time I play. I have had some pretty hefty green bonuses before. I dont remember them all, but I am sure a good portion will stay even during war.

Here's another thought. Do different leader personalities view bonuses differently? If I have +5 with one guy and he is friendly will everyone be friendly at +5 or some pleased and cautious?

Also, it should be possible to set what you think of other civs and have it somehow reflect on their relations with you.

[Solver]

Rook, yes, you can be at +15. That will give you Friendly and not Pleased, BTW. And yeah, during wars you can stay at, say, Cautious. Never had a Pleased war though.

A good portion of green bonuses stay during wars, but a good portion doesn't. Bonuses for religion, fair trade, those stay. Bonuses for years of peace or open borders go away. So while there's a -6 instant negative hit if you nuke them, you'll also lose positive bonuses worth at the very least +2, probably more. So your net loss can easily be even -10.

Here's another thought. Do different leader personalities view bonuses differently? If I have +5 with one guy and he is friendly will everyone be friendly at +5 or some pleased and cautious?

IIRC, those attitude levels are fixed. But different leaders certainly have different numbers for the various factors.

[The keeper]

It is easier to have a civ pleased with you during war if they declared war on you. You dont have the -x "You declared war on us"

[Solver]

Ahh, but many leaders will never declare if they're Pleased with you.

[Crossfire]

Ahh, but many will.

[Solver]

Most won't. I think three quarters don't declare when Pleased. BTW, no one declares when Friendly.

[Badtz Maru]

Originally posted by Solver
Most won't. I think three quarters don't declare when Pleased. BTW, no one declares when Friendly.

I do.

[Qwertqwert]

I had a Please during a war also, ummm... I think it was Ceasar. The overall was something like +4 or +5 I think.