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  • #16
    All excellent points, LionHeart!

    I would say, however, that into the mix above, add the following:

    The population of the city (assuming that the city was taken by force) is hostile to you, and her citizenry are angry (and will influence the chances of that city falling prey to the cultural power of whomever you took it from). As such, there is a dire NEED to bleed that population down, for the security of the Empire, of course. But pop-rushing has limits, and can only be done sparingly...at least, if you want the city to become productive in a useful time period. By focusing on the (relatively expensive) forge out the gate, you a) rid yourself of a large number of miscreants, b) can assign an engineer specialist to give yourself a hammer boost during those turns when pop rushing (due to the unhappy hit) is too expensive to consider, and c) DURING those aforementioned times, reap a solid hammer benefit while waiting for the next rush.

    Doing this will, no doubt, savage the population to near minimum (size one), at which point the city will grow fairly rapidly with or without the immediate granary (which typically sees its biggest turn-saving gains on relatively larger cities), making it possible to delay (slightly) the building of the granary.

    Where cultural pressure is concerned, if you just captured a city, then you're on the offensive, and if you're on the offensive, you should not have to contend with cultural pressures for long, because you can either a) advance the front (capture another city, and thus, relieve the cultural pressure on the first), or b) if you're nearing the end of your limits to sustain the war effort, capture and raze the next city, to nullify any cultural pressure at all. Then, when the AI re-settles, you'll be a leg up, because you will have had, by that time, sufficient turns to drop a theater or something down to start making your own cultural claims.

    In the case of a peacefully acquired city, or one settled at the border by you, you don't face the happiness issues, and (at least in my experience) you've got at least a bit of chopping that can be done much of the time. This, coupled with perhaps one early pop-rush can plant the seeds of a highly profitable border city, and again, Forge would be my first build choice (in fact, in the late game, I generally open by building ALL of the hammer enhancers first, in newly captured cities...Forge, Factory, Power Plant, knowing that I cannot afford to cash-rush everywhere at once, and even a smallish hpt (hammer per turn) bonus will be greatly improve the overall speed with which those cities can put down infrastructure.

    And finally, if you're Industrious, this should be pure automatic (it's good for everyone, but it's fantastic for Ind civs). The enabling power of free hammers is compelling stuff.

    This approach can, of course, be further enhanced by ALSO running Org. Rel, which will make the Forge-First option even more compelling. Even without Org Rel tho, I find it to be a strong, strong play.

    -=Vel=-
    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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    • #17
      I prefer to slave rush theatres first thing in conquered cities - kills off some of the rebels while the rest are off watching the latest production of Hamlet. It also pushes the borders out quickly so the city can access its resources and people are less likely to starve. I'll then use the theatre to assign an artist or two if there's annoying border pressure from a neutral civ. The culture isn't really the main aim initially, keeping as much of the population as feasible to make the city stay productive is.

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      • #18
        If the new city is on a border, and is in cultrual danger, I'll rush a theatre. If not, and if it's a decent money-making city already sometimes I'll go library first instead, and use that to get me the fat cross; not quite as fast, but more useful in general.

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        • #19
          I agree with Vel.If there is a lot to build,there a big need of hammers,so forge and factory(but not the power plant,I prefer the Wonder);then granary and courthouse.(Cities don´t slip to the civ they were conquered from).
          Best regards,

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          • #20
            Vel is correct. There is always much to build in a captured city, so the hammer advantages are needed as soon as possible. And you cant take the gold with you, so cash rush as soon as possible.

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            • #21
              There are several ways of getting hammers

              If you check the bacon thread you'll probably see why I believe that the granary is the faster way to hammers than forge. Putting aside the health/happiness benefits from these two structures, granaries swing the balance of importance from tile hammers to tile food. Forges slightly tilt this towards hammers.

              It can be somewhat self-fulfilling. If you build the forge first then you have more interest in hammers because they get the +25% bonus. If you build the granaries then food gets the +100% bonus (effectively).

              With a full granary, you can convert food to production at a ratio of at least 1 for 1, even for a city of size 18!!!

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              • #22
                Yep, Lion makes a good point. The only reason I disagree with the ORDER (cos in truth, I build them both), is that you're only going to be rushing periodically (say, every 10-15 turns or so). For alllllllll those other turns in between rushes, whatever you're building is going to need accumulated hammers. Rushing will help finish the build out faster, but those hammers every turn are vital.

                -=Vel=-
                The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Velociryx
                  Yep, Lion makes a good point. The only reason I disagree with the ORDER (cos in truth, I build them both), is that you're only going to be rushing periodically (say, every 10-15 turns or so). For alllllllll those other turns in between rushes, whatever you're building is going to need accumulated hammers. Rushing will help finish the build out faster, but those hammers every turn are vital.

                  -=Vel=-
                  So if you're rushing, isn't the +100% food better than +25% hammers?

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                  • #24
                    IMO, both are needed. The food's important because WHEN you rush, you want help recovering the lost pop, but the Forge can't be discounted, because you're probably only going to be rushing every 10-15 (or longer) turns. Thus, for all the "in-between" turns where you're not rushing, you're not getting bonus hammers if you don't have a multiplier like a forge. By building it first, you solve a number of key problems for yourself. 1) you kill off rebellious pop points (assuming, as above, we're talking about newly captured cities). 2) You give yourself free hammers for *every subsequent build*. More importantly, you give yourself this bonus on *every subsequent turn* (including all those that you are recovering lost pop points and waiting til you can rush again).

                    Given that the forge is much more expensive to build than the granary, the time to build it is when you have more "spare" points of pop to work with, and that's usually right after you capture the city and suffer thru the rebellion turns. Once it is in place, everything else you build from that point on is at least 25% cheaper (well not really, you get 25% more hammers, but you know what I mean), making it entirely possible that while you're waiting for the pop to recover, the city might have sufficient production to actually finish a build naturally, allowing your next pop rush to speed-build the NEXT building.

                    Granary is definitely important, and it's in my top five builds, but for me, the forge edges it out in overall importance. I don't want growth for growth's sake in the newly captured towns (no happy infrastructure in place), so the only reason FOR growth is pop rushing, which I can't do every turn. That's why the forge wins in my book.

                    -=Vel=-
                    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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                    • #25
                      I tend to put granary before forge not for Lionheart's analytical reason but for the gut feeling (short-sighted) "it's cheaper and I want to build pop faster." When it comes to production boosters beyond the Forge, I shudder to mention it, but I think the ROI on the Factory is prohibitive in relatively-small cities. Likely I can make better use of my cash elsewhere, and I don't have enough warm bodies to poprush it.
                      "...your Caravel has killed a Spanish Man-o-War."

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                      • #26
                        Oh well. I guess we’ll have to agree to differ on this one . You are using the forge to speed up the granary while I would use the granary to speed up the forge. I would certainly agree that whipping those ungrateful foreigners for an expensive build is worthwhile so why not build the forge. Not forgetting also that the forge has the capacity to give you more hammers per population chop (if I understand the mechanism correctly).

                        In fact, I should make one other important point that surplus food (well at least non-negative) is my “first” requirement. If I am losing population to starvation then each lost population point is costing me at least 45-60 hammers (epic speed) and this is even more wasteful than building over a forest

                        There are a few ways to turn a starving city into one with surplus food. The simplest is to chop as many as possible which could lead me to start with a forge, library or a courthouse for the maximum “first-chop”. Playing recently as industrious, I’ve tended to view the forge as cheap and often I can’t get rid of enough natives if I chop this first.

                        For a coastal city, a lighthouse is probably the best way to turn low food tiles into surplus tiles. If I have no other food sources, this may be my first chop.

                        Finally, with cultural threats from larger nearby cities, I can expand my borders to capture food tiles through culture (slow) or simply be sending an army to destroy the offending city (slightly quicker).

                        There are, of course, cases where the granary has quite limited use and that is for a city low on food. Doubling this will give dramatic increases in growth but not enough to justify putting the granary ahead of the forge. It may also be that we need to improve some tiles first and in this time we could conceivably throw up a forge first to help speed the granary in time for the improved tiles to speed growth.

                        And so I end my brief monologue with another comment suggesting that these decision will differ according to the specific circumstances. Coming from a player who is more erratic in his diplomatic behaviour that Monty, Napoleon or Tokugawa, better at the game than any of them but without the huge bonuses that they get.

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