The Great Library vs CS Slingshot

[Urban Ranger]

Which one is better for generating research points, the Great Library or Bureaucracy?

The Great Library directly increases beakers (probably in your capital) but Bureaucray nets you +50% in coins, which will also boost your research. Also, the +50% hammer means you can build other science structures faster.

[rewster1]

Great Library gives you 6 research on its own. That's not really a whole lot, but since you aren't doing a CS you can go for the Pyramids and representation (plus use the resulting great engineer to flash build the GL). That's 12 research now, which for pure research is most likely greater than what you will get from bureaucracy. You'd need to have 24 research already with a 100% science rate to get the same beaker benefit from bureau. Pyramids aside, you only need 12 base commerce in your capital to get the same effect as the GL.
Now, the hammer benefit of CS is obviously a big help and you don't get that from the GL, but what you get instead can be even more beneficial, and that is a total of 10 base GPP and 3 great scientist "sources".

Overall I think the pyramids->flash GL is a solid alternative to CS sling, especially because once you finally do get CS you can still get that increase as well.

[couerdelion]

Bureaucracy gets my vote

My current game handed me the Chinese guy with the Jedi name along with some stone, a selection of food and calendar happies and a small peninsula to develop once Roosie had seal of any inland expansion. There was also a choice slot for a third city that would make a nice GP generator. So I acted contrary to usual policy and opted to build the Pyramids. Imhotep popped up conveniently in time to then build the Great Library in the capital.

The point of this brief story is that GL with Representation from the Pyramids is a fairly useful wonder. With no other improvements it gives 12 beakers and 8 GP points.

Even with this combination, I am still quite a way behind in both techs and tech investment rate when compared to most games where I have grabbed CS early.

Also looking directly at the two benefits I would have to side with bureaucracy over GL if I had to make the simple choice of one or the other.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by rewster1
Overall I think the pyramids->flash GL is a solid alternative to CS sling, especially because once you finally do get CS you can still get that increase as well.

Better still if you can run a separate GP generator. I'd still put the GL in the capital and the academy but the second GP generator will make a much stronger balanced civ that the imbalanced created by the CS slingshot.

[The keeper]

Depending on your military situation, you can do both. I have done this twice at the monarch level.

Start with the normal CS slingshot. After getting CoL, research alphebet then literature. Your capital with the increased science (via commerce) and production, you can pound out the Great Library.


This does leave you in a weak position militarily, so it all depends on what the situation is.



And just so you know, the 2 times I successfully did it on monarch, I lost. Once by spaceship (trying for culture) and once by just gettting run over by the Montazuma express. I have accomplished this many times playing at prince.

[fed1943]

In the game I'm currently playing,the Oracle(2nd city)and Pyramids(capital)get builded in the same turn.Later the capital builded the GL.Full credit to the starting location.
Best regards,

[couerdelion]

I assume that “both” was not an option here since it is so obvious that you can get GL and then research CS for bureaucracy at a later date. I am actually assuming that the question is really whether or not it is worth getting bureaucracy very early is worth foregoing the chance of taking GL.

My early response was based on a gut-feel for the level of output I was getting from a financial capital with GL and Pyramids and I felt this was a little lower than a comparable capital with Bureaucracy. Having said that, the GL will soon be bringing me my Academy and once my capital has the spices and silks to complement its silver I can imagine things might change.

Having said that my own situation is one which includes Pyramids which distorts the equation in favour of GL. While we might be able to conclude that a CS-Slingshot + GL is achievable at emperor level, I would imagine that CS-Slingshot+ Pyramids+GL would be rather too much to hope for.

[uberfish]

Why settle for one when you can have both? Most of the time when I do a CS slingshot, I use the bureaucracy production boost to build the great library too. The only time the AI beats me to it is if my capital has to produce a lot of military.

[Cadarn]

Originally posted by uberfish
Why settle for one when you can have both? Most of the time when I do a CS slingshot, I use the bureaucracy production boost to build the great library too. The only time the AI beats me to it is if my capital has to produce a lot of military.

What he said.

Running straight to Alphabet / Literature after completing the CS slingshot gives you time to either produce military in the capital until you're ready to start the GL, or found and develop a production city to take up the military production.

Start site dependent of course, but it's quite doable unless you are really stuffed in an awful part of the World.

Also, you could well be the first civ to Alphabet and Literature if you take this path, which gives you a bit of control over who else (if anybody) can compete with your GL build.

[couerdelion]

Why you can't have both



If you have both then you have failed to answer the question correctly so get NULL POINTS!!!

[Cadarn]

Re: Why you can't have both

Originally posted by couerdelion


If you have both then you have failed to answer the question correctly so get NULL POINTS!!!

Nil points yourself

The answer to your question is: "Neither. Get them both "

Well, if you are pressing me for an opinion, I'd go for the extra kick offered by Bureaucracy. That nice hammer bonus feeds into all sorts of Builder-esque "Capital" projects.

[Shaka II]

I only build the Pyramids if I have stone, though there is the metal casting, forge, great engineer start that Paladin posted. The Pyramids requires too many hammers, unless you're industrious or have stone. I love to build it though and will sometimes go out of my way to get stone.

When I'm philosophical, I like the Oracle -> CoL (build temple to get more great prophet points) -> Alphabet -> CS about 10-12 turns, switch to Literature, then when Great prophet is ready, switch back to CS and burn it in, then switch back to Literature to chop in the GL. Must make sure to shut off GPP points in capital before great scientist is built to make sure he doesn't get built before the GP in the Oracle city. Also, don't research masonry, but do research polytheism to use GP for CS.

In this way, I get to CS fairly quickly, get my great scientist for academy shortly after, and then I build Great Library for added science boost. Ideally, the capital gets the GL, but it depends if there are enough trees left (5 forests are required). So, sometimes I have two science cities, both with their own academies, since philisophical generates GS fairly quickly. This is on emperor and has worked three out of three times so far for my philosophical leader Mao. CS slingshot is too risky on emperor. You probably won't build Oracle before the AI, and then where does that put you?

[rjmatsleepers]

Re: The Great Library vs CS Slingshot

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Which one is better for generating research points, the Great Library or Bureaucracy?

The Great Library directly increases beakers (probably in your capital) but Bureaucray nets you +50% in coins, which will also boost your research. Also, the +50% hammer means you can build other science structures faster.

Along with a couple of the earlier posters, I think I'm missing something in this question. I like to go for both as soon as possible. Usually, the slingshot gets me to bureaucracy before I discover literacy. Then the boost to research helps me discover literacy and the boost to production helps me build the library.

My answer to the question as posed is that bureaucracy wins hands down. By the end of the game, bureaucracy could be giving you several hundred research points per turn while the GL has expired! Even if we only count up to the point where the GL expires, in a good sized capital with lots of towns, I doubt that the research generated by the GL over it's lifetime will match the benefits from bureaucracy.

But bureaucracy is always an option (well at least until the UN passes a resolution to the contrary). If you are in a tactical situation where you have to choose between the GL and bureaucracy, surely you go for the GL before one of the AI civs grabs it.

Perhaps the question was about whether to go for the GL at all. IMO it's worth having, but not worth unbalancing your empire for. Building the GL one turn before your weak empire is over run by one of its neighbours is not fun.

Perhaps the question was about research strategy: chosing a path to get you the GL quickly and maybe using the GP or Oracle for this purpose. My gut reaction is that there is more benefit in a CS slingshot than a literacy slingshot, but perhaps someone can argue the opposite view.

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

I tried to construct a situation where there seems to be a choice between bureaucracy and the GL. This might arise if you construct the Oracle and your choice of technologies includes CS and literature. But this isn't a very good test because in most circumstances CS wins hands down. Apart from anything else, you get many more "free" beakers with CS.

Ignoring that for the moment, with bureaucracy and access to marble, you can probably research literature and construct the GL in about 26 turns. During those turns, bureaucracy will probably give you roughly 6 beakers per turn, excluding the effect of a library.

If you choose literature (and assuming you have a library) you can probably construct the GL in about 19 turns. this gives you 7 turns with 2 scientists who will again add 6 beakers per turn (excluding your library). After this point you're still researching CS so the GL option begins to lose heavily, but let's ignore that.

So bureaucracy gives you the same number of beakers per turn, but starts working earlier.

These figures are from a game with Lizzy at Noble level where I had lots of flood plains. On a start with less commerce and a different leader, there will be less benefit from bureaucracy. But unless your research rate is low, you will not get less than 4 beakers. And 4 beakers for 26 turns beats 6 beakers for 7 turns.

My conclusion is that in this scenario, bureaucracy will give more research than the GL unless you are running at a low research rate.

Of course, you may want to build the GL for tactical reasons, but that is a different matter.

RJM at Sleeper's

[rewster1]

One of the keys here is... do you have marble? And do you have stone? If you have stone but no marble, a good idea could be to build pyramids, switch to representation, research literature, and flash the GL. This gives you 12 beakers per turn when built, the ability to change to any other govt civic in the future, and a lot of great scientist points. If you have marble, it might be more beneficial to try for CS and use it to speed up the GL.
It's hard to say.