What not to do

[unamablebuiler]

if you are behind millitarilly or tech wise and on your own island/continent

NEVER give alexander or any agro civ Astronomy

Why cause they will squish you flat

i was on my own continent and had it 3/4 covered in cities just found that their land was a pangea and they were fightiing each other egypt had died but the fighting ground on. I was a way behind in techs and some civs were obtaining astronomy so i decided to research it. when complete i contacted everyone got 5 techs for it without alexander annother 2 there i give it to him and only 5 turns later he lands 2 squads of ctapuls and granadiers i only just got long bows. thats the end of my empire.

As i was about 25 tiles from his land he would of had to rush those ships and then cram them full of units immedieately and send them out that turn and even the he wouldn't have got there for annother 2 turns as he was't the first to cricumnavigate the gobe WTF?

lesson the statment at the top of this post

[Urban Ranger]

If you are that far behind in both you are dead anyway.

[gdgrimm]

Astronomy is one of those key techs. If you have it, and others don't, you need to be careful about who and how you trade it.

[spammurabi]

I would suspect that the reason that he got his ships over to you so quickly is that he upgraded his old galley fleet to Galleons, then saw that you were far behind militarily and probably didn't like you for one reason or another.

[unamablebuiler]

i traded with everyone but alexander and it only delayed the inevitable though i had only a couple of muskets and was researching cavarly when he came

upgrading his galleys would still take a turn and he landed with 6 units

[Yosho]

(shrug) Trading astronomy was still probably the right thing to do. When you're that far behind, beeling for techs the AI's don't have yet and then trading them to everyone is probably the only way to have a chance of getting close to caught up.

You were losing, and you took a risk, and it didn't pay off. It still was probably your best bet, though

[Possibility]

You just gave up when he landed? What a wimp! Your long bows would have provided enough deffense until you got cavalry finished. The long bows probably had + 100-175% bonus which would have made them adequate in strength to defend against the grenadiers. It would have taken a while for the catapults to knock down your city defenses. You could have held out until cavalry which would have provided more then a match for some grenadiers.

You could have easily stuck it out and survived.

Possibility

[unamablebuiler]

he landed next to a city adjacent to my capital and i only had 1 archer in those cities, was building muskets when he lands with grenadiers what would you do ? do you think he was only going to send only 2 shiploads across with such a juicy target?
most of my units were on barbarian suppersion duties up the other end of the continent. as i didn't need hordes of units and in fact if you want to keep up and are isolated that is the worst thing you can do imo


possibillity : you think i'm a wimp lets see what you do and if you survive here is the save at the point i had traded astronomy with everyone but alexander.

settings 9 civs continents tropical

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=77893_beeline.zip

i went fom archers to muskets in only 5 turns i would of lost my capital next turn it would of taken me several turns to build cavarly after the research was complete 5 turns 1 long bow versus 3 grendiers +3 cats is very long odds. i have seen single axemen kill 3 archers in a city fortified consecutively
i reckon it would be a better bet building 8 to 10 frigates ((pop rush) after chemistry with some diplomacy to keep him busy at home instead now i've thought a bout it

[Possibility]

I checked out your save game. Here is what i did.

Traded astronomy to the Greeks.
Continued researching philosphy, after that was completed went for gunpowerder (which first required guilds).

I didnt build up anymore defenses at all so i would be unprepared when they attacked. I however started making Heroic Epic in your most productive city. You had 2 catapults chasing barbarians which wasnt a good idea, so I moved them back to the capital. I finished killing the barbarians with your macemen and take a couple barbarian cities.

I lowered culture to 0 and increased science to 70% and switched to bureaucracy.

After finishing guilds and the Heroic Epic, that city starting making Knights.

The greeks landed next to Detroit with 2 grenadiers, 3 cats and 1 muskettman, when I was still 1 turn away from finising gunpowered. I used slavery to hurry a longbow and upgraded the archer in the city to a longbow. In neighboring cities I upgraded some units to longbows and started moving them to the capital city. I started making catapults in the capital city.

They attacked and razed Detroit to the ground, but lost a catipult and took damage on their units in the process.

They then started pillaging with the grenadiers, and moved their catapults next the capitals - undefended cats. I hurried a few more Knights in other cities. The 2 catapults were easy kills since they were undefended.

I then started resarching military tradition (Cavalry).

The greeks took forever to move anywhere cause they were pillaging. They finally got 1 musketter and 1 grenadier moved next to my capital, the same turn I finished military tradiion. The other grenadier was out pillaging.

I saved the game here for you.

So now in the capital I upgraded my 3 Knights into Cavalry since you had a boat load money. I now had 3 cavalry, 1 maceman, 1 pikeman, 3 longbows and 5 catapults defending my capital.

Next turn the AI again just pillaged and I then i easily killed them without any losses. In total, I lost only 2 units defending Detroit and lost Detroit. I now have several Cavalry and researching Chemistry so I can make my own grenadiers.

I was very far from dead.



Here is some advice for you:



What not to do:
Research Civil Service and forget to switch to Bureaucracy.


What not to do:
While on an island alone - completely neglet city defenses. I play a lot of islands games, and no one bothers to

make defenses. Its always a good laugh when I am first to get gallions and invade my neighbors who only have an

archer for defense (I only play multiplayer, but the same kind of applies to SP).


What not to do:
Just give up so quickly. So you might have lost one city, big whoop. You also had like 20 some cities. So what if

you lose a couple.


What not to do:
Forgot that the enemy cant use your roads and can only move 1 tile at a time. If the enemy landed next to your 2nd city, it would have taken them a few turns at least to get to your capital. But most likely they would have taken the city they landed next too first, and waited a few turns there before moving on. By which time you would have had addequate defenses.


What not to do:
Build a theater in a city that has 19 happiness with only a population of 12. There is no point in making a theater there! Instead build a barracks and some units if you have nothing else to build there. Dont make happiness buildings like temples in cities that dont need them. Same with aquaducts. You are better off using that free time in the city to make something more usefull like a military so you dont appear so weak and get invaded. The most important thing to realize is you dont need to build every building in every city, so quit wasting a cities time doing that.


What not to do:
Forget that you can upgrade units. You were invaded and yet had over $2000. You can upgrade your obsolete archers into a better defender.


What not to do:
Forget that you can hurry units for defense when you are slavery. You could have rushed a defender in the city they landed next too and also rushed one in your capital and reinforced the city. And ALWAYS rush a unit in a city that is going to be destroyed anyways. The took detroit and razed, so there was no reason for me not to use the slavery bonus and rush a defender, which caused some damage to the attack when they took the city.


What not to do:
Have your culture at 10% when you dont need the extra happiness.


What not to do:
Over estimate the AI. You actually thought they would keep sending transports with more units? Haha, thats funny.

[Possibility]

Here is the save file:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=2464_DAVOAD-1756.Civ4SavedGame

[unamablebuiler]

Possi:
i have read you posts and downloaded your save(haven't looked though) went back to the save and tried my thoughts
This is what i did from the same point

noone is friendly enough to declare war on alexander
kept sci/tax unchanged

i saw your comment about bearaucracy but i don't get how its benifit would be bigger than vassalage in this situation
with vassalage i get an extra 25 aprox units for free plus 2 exp points on every new unit, this is big with or without barracks

researched gunpowder then chemistry built/poprushed 5-6 frigates stationed on NW coast. othercities building longbows/muskets detroit has garrison reinforced from new units and upgrades, other cities upgraded garrison

assimilate barbarian city to south sentry units on uncolonise land to stop barbcities being built.
greeks come 1772, greek frigates in fleet sunk galleons land troops 1 mksuket 3 grenadiers 2 catapults
2 turns later they land settler/ longbow in southern continent despite a pounding it survives founds a city and is destroyed next turn by mace

greek galleons retreats defendsin detroit are 2 muskets 3 longbows washington+newyork building knights cats bombard detroit musket moves north 1 grenadier pillages horses(thank god i have extras) no lossses muskest hurt

next turn
poprush knigths (don't want unhappiness in cities now due to this but it needs to be done)
catapults attack musket badly hurt and longbowlost musket lost to musket longbow lost to granadierwhich is badly injured.

knights built kill musket and grenadier city kept 2squarws pillaged and now i have a navy
bout 10 turns later (still at war with greece) Issabella declares war (expecting this though saw Issabellas invasion due of caravel patrol) forces 2 frigate 2 galleons full with cavarly, i have 5 frigates spainsh sunk and failed to make landfall losses 2 frigates: gains 3 more experinced frigates 1 promotion to combat (she tried to land in the same spot as the greeks

also founded 4 new colonies on an island and on remainder of continent.

i just got lonbows with the trades i did from astronomy and i saved immedieatley aftyer that


A few points you forgot alot of civs were changing to emancipation as itis still some thime off i need to have my happiness high to counter the ill effects of this and waging war.

You said i didn't need to build aqueducts /theaters


one city is a toe hold and more will comm also the greeks are behind technologically i overtook them in mill tech
behind with everyone else.

greece has power only 40 percent more than me england 10 percent but spain is about 4 times the power and more advanced if they got to war serriously thats the end of me

what not to do:
think beauracracy is the bee all and end all for winning. One fantastic city an empire does not make

loose cities one or 2 might not hurt but 5 or 10 will, if you loose one whats going to stop them at 1 i wold say put everything you can into hurting the enemy before they get to cit range

ignore happines and run citites without a buffer , remember every citizen not working is a deadweight and worthless

underestimate the AI
i have seen game where the ai did jus keep sending troops into the grinder the trick is to anticpate where the will land. hard to do for the first run in game. In this game the greeks landed a settler +longbow which must of been eliminated or i would of never been able to get rid of them.

ignore your navy a fleet can interdect and destroy a fleet before it ever sees land no invasion no squares plundered
no risk to cities

i also stand by my comment in the start of this post dont trade miilitarillay useful rech with agro AI it will bite you on the arse.

Also if i didn't emphasize my economy you would not have had astronomy or even longbows when greece came my economy is what enable me to fend them off. i have now regained the top spot econimcally but still need to increase poduction badly.

possibillity the next problem in this is the industrial capacity spain has round 4 times mine and is the leading power. Also most of the don't like me very much the best rating is cautious. spain ang pesria have to be neutralised or this game is lost.

i was probaly a bit permature to quit but as i see the negatives too easilly (i suffer from depression) it colours my game. i did forget the roads thing though

the gold is a bribery thing as well as upgrading units i helped end the war with greece early.

as for your mill campain i think i did a better job(yes i saw it before but i was occupied a bit the last couple of days) having fought 2 wars and not lost the city is nothing special cause this city was small(backfill) its main importance is its proximity to the capital

[Quillan]

Bureaucracy increases raw commerce and production by 50% at the capital city. The capital tends to be the most developed of your cities, and near the top if not your highest in commerce. A 50% increase in commerce gives a huge increase in research as a result, so you research techs faster. The 50% increase in production means you build things faster. That's why it's better than Vassalage, as a general rule.

Vassalage is a better tech in certain circumstances, such as when you're in a mass unit building phase and need the extra 2 XP per unit, or you have a huge empire and huge army, where an extra 40+ free units will save you more money than you lose by switching to the civic. However, it sounds to me as if A) you weren't yet building huge numbers of units because you say your military was quite small, and B) you didn't have a huge number of units anway. So, if you already aren't spending money on supporting these units, what good are 25 free units?

[Possibility]

unamablebuiler, you didnt have any civic chosen under Legal, you were just the default Barbarism, you could have switched to Bureaucracy or Vassalage - Vassalage having the higher cost. So switching to Bureaucracy would have made sense.

Also, you went and played the game again with hind sight, which is unfair. Yes knowing that the greeks were going to land next to Detroit, i could have increased its number of defenders rigth from the start of your save game and saved the city. But that would be unfair. So I played the game about as you would have until the greeks landed, and then I started to defend and counter the attack. So yes you were going to lose Detroit. But you didnt lose the game (at least not yet). You gave up way to quick and were a little wimp - sorry if the truth hurts.

Also, try and take my advice a little (and others) on what i said not to do. You were going to completely lose that game in the end, the other civs were absolutely huge and way more advanced compared to you. And why did that happen? You were on your own huge island with tons of room to freely expand, you shouldnt have been so far behind.


Another what not to do:
If you are on your island, dont shoot for caravels and meet the other AI civs so you can trade with them.

Possibility

[unamablebuiler]

Quillan
even though i was runiing a small army i had more than 50 units and was at the point where i would not need to pay for most of my army if i was vasalage not sure how much it would save relative to not running it. this game i had a small turn over of units in cities without barracks
The big thing with vassalage is the extra XP getting an extra promotion. would it be worth more than 50% better capital ?


Possibbillity:
first point yes i did have the advantage of hindsight but you could of replayed and found the best possible result also. don'y you know that the AI knows where and what all of your units are. Also you obviously didnot read how i posted that delaying astronomy to alexander bought me the time do better defend and obtain further techs

you think you would of done much better? that was my first attempt on this map i din't know i would be alone till 500 AD.
i got feudalism through trade but researched civil servicve not long before but i had saved this bout 1500 AD

second point
did you ever think that your advice while good may actually be the wrong thing to do.
as for me giving up too early i might just read the signs a bit earlier i don't feel its much fun where you already know the outcome there were other things i saw that were bad signs before astronomy.

one thing you did not pick up was my relative lack of great people the Ai was spitting these out on a regular basis
now you know what i have done wrong here is the 4000 BC save feel free to play as often as you want, it won't change the nature of that map greatly.

i started this thred wanting to share what i had discovered don't be lax trading with agro civs it will come back and bite you. i might not be as good but aren't i allowed to share what i have learn't so that others don't make the same mistake?

i will be now using this map as a training scenario mostly.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Of course you are allowed to share what you've learned with others, etc..

But I would be very thankful that people like Posi are taking the time to actually go through and play your saved game and then demonstrate what you could do to be in a better position.

Rather than coming back and implying he was stupid for not over-defending detriot early enough... when he shouldn't know the AI was going to attack there.

You've gotten lots of great advice here, and you've also learned a lesson through the trading of Astronomy.. and you're correct: Don't trade it! Not unless you are sure you can withstand the invasion that will certainly come once the other civ's know Astronomy.. by trading it to them you are speeding up the time to your own invasion! Now you know that! I never really thought about it much before either, so this thread has helped me.

But your comments 'do you think you could have done better' are uncalled for. Yes, I'm sure he does think he can do better. He took a situation where you just gave up and was able to rather quickly fix the situation with minimal losses.

As far as you not knowing you were alone on an island soon enough to benefit from it... That's nobody's fault but your own.

As far as you not generating enough GPP.. again, that's nobody's fault but your own. If you want to ignore GPPs for whatever reason to focus on other things as a strategic choice.. ok. But in this situation you were behind in GPPs, in Techs, and Military.

So I don't know what you were focusing on if not any of those three things. I also don't care enough to pull your saved game file and try to figure it out. But that's the exact reason why you should be thanking Posi and not being offended by his comments.

He called you a wimp? So what. You are the one that abandoned your entire empire because you were in a situation that equated to the loss of a single city.