Organized better than Financial?

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Blake This is a large part of the power of organized - neglecting the gold multiplier. It's an efficiency trait - allowing you to get by with less.

One of the biggest problems in "valuing" traits is that different traits should lead to different games so you many not necessarily get sound scientific answers by these comparisons.

This is not to say that I find such exercises worthless since they clearly highlight circumstances in which one trait appears to be better than another.

To take an example, while it is tempting to state that the value of spiritual trait is the saved anarchy, this is actually a flawed argument. Spiritual's real strength is that it allows you to change your civics almost at will with no loss production/commerce etc through anarchy. This is where the Spiritiual civ can switch civics when another one would perhaps wait for a second new civic before switching both at once.

One of these days, I'll have to play on Organised to see if I can notice the benefits. I just find that the Spiritual, Aggressive, Financial and Philosophic ones are so much more "positive" benefits

[smbakeresq]

Blake's statement is the key to the Organized trait, it is an efficiency trait. It is the only trait that directly effects the science/gold/culture slider, and its effects multiply over time and scale. Its value is increased by the late game inflation, since it relies on efficiency, whereas finacial trait advantages slowly degrade over time, but are somewhat balanced by the more squares being worked.

[Shaka II]

I think Blake summed it up quite well, and that example of organized/spiritual is great. I think organized/philosophical would allow almost as great an inbalance in science vs. financial multipliers, considering the cheap universities, but the shrine income allows such a perfect allocation of financial multipliers to just the shrine cities.

coerdelion - Just taking a quick look at the Japanese game, it was very close between organized and financial, neglecting the courthouse effect, financial seeming to be slightly better from the financial multiplier output. I didn't look at science in that example. The average city had 3.83 extra base commerce, which is quite a bit higher than the 2.57 in the Incan example. Perhaps it was just the lay of the land or maybe I compensated for not being financial by building more cottages? Probably to some extent, though I remember having a lot of gold mines and floodplains with cottages . In any case, the top 8 cities had an average of 7.75 extra commerce instead of the 5.9 in the Incan game. The average financial multiplier was still only 0.31 though (in 1530AD with game over in 1562AD).

Overall, the benefits of the two traits seem to be close when comparing those two aspects in a domination type game, which may be quite different in a building/wonder type game. But when the effect of early cheap courthouses vs. late cheap banks is considered, I think organized wins handily for this type of early domination type game. You usually only win or win handily if you expand early and never stop. The organized trait and cheap courthouses allow that expansion.

[gentle]

Originally posted by Blake
Organized is indeed good when you can get a high slider %age with a large empire - for example with shrine income and booty gold. It makes it a lot easier to neglect the gold multipliers. All you need to build are courthouses, which are handily cheap for organized.

It's my opinion that Financial is most strong for steady, sedated growth, where infrastructure keeps pace with expansion, such that the slider will be above 70% even without income from other sources.

Organized is good for the rapidly expanding empire, especially with the cheap courthouses. And even without the courthouses - consider that you start paying the civic bill the moment a city gets founded, org immediately goes to work reducing that expense. While financial doesn't kick in until the city is working the +2 comm tiles and (later) some multiplier infrastructure is in place.

So my assessment is that Organized is most useful while you're expanding, in a given stable empire org and fin might be quite close, or fin ahead, but for the expanding empire org will be superior. Some play styles support perpetual expansion (especially Tokugawa/Caesar domination victories) and organized is especially ideal for that.
The stagnating empire is one which is squandering organized, but making good use of financial.

100% agree. I share this view of FIN vs ORG.
might note that ORG is a passive skill that does not interfere with early game tile working / micro.

edit: ok, you mentioned it , sry
" While financial doesn't kick in until the city is working the +2 comm tiles [...]"

[OzzyKP]

Org isn't entirely passive. To get the full benefit from it you need to expand and be aggressive. Org is rather weak with a small kingdom of 5 cities.

[Shaka II]

I agree though I never had a small civ in the modern era to test it out. It would be interesting to test such an example.

In the ancient or classical era with only about 4 to 6 cities, organized seems to track pretty close to financial. Even for many cities (~30) in the late renaissance era, they seem pretty close. But where organized wins out is when the effect of the cheap courthouses that reduce the expenses of a large empire is considered. The cheap lighthouses are a bonus, assuming you have some coast to use them. The larger empire you have, the greater opportunity there is to make use of these buildings, so the stronger organized becomes. Banks on the other hand, get usually built in the top 8 to 10 cities (on a standard map), depending on what type of victory condition you're going for, so their utility is not as widely spread. Those little outlying cities don't warrant expensive buildings like universities or banks, but they do warrant building cheap courthouses to reduce expenses and cheap lighthouses to grow.

Someone here said civ is a numbers game.

[fed1943]

I thought more than twice before posting here,because I don't know mathematics,but my goal is learn.So,IMHO
1)both finantial and organized don't work with sliders(Fin increase base commerce and Org saves gold).
2)Fin depends on some worked tiles;tiles:the natural ones(some specials,coastal)and the artificial ones(fast cottages with river,slow cottages no river,some later improvments,all of them needing some type of tiles).
The number of possible tiles depends on the number of cities and the number of worked tiles on the number of population(well,not so easy here:a citizen of city A cannot work a tile of city B,but...).
The diferent kinds of tiles depend (I guess)on some high math come from the World Builder rules;some correction needed because the placement of cities is not random.
(I know,the number of cottages depends just on the player'strategie;a better one,by sure,after reading your work,and that will be the ability of intervention).
(Also the time factor,mostly the research necessary to improve).
3)Org depends on the civics cost which is already known (but not by me).
4)Hence,it seems the "central"point is connected with the number of cities and the number of population.
5)I hope I pointed some questions,since I'm not able to give answers.
Best regards,

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by fed1943

I thought more than twice before posting here,because I don't know mathematics,but my goal is learn.So,IMHO
1)both finantial and organized don't work with sliders(Fin increase base commerce and Org saves gold).

That's right. Financial works on base commerce, before the science or financial multipliers, while organized is on the output side, independent of sliders. But if you want to compare them in a quantitative way, you have to convert to equivalent base commerce in the case of organized, or equivalent gold in the case of financial, or equivalent science as the case may be. And that's where the slider comes into play. Blake mentions the case where he has founded several religions and built the shrines allowing him to put banks only in those cities, and run a high science multiplier, higher than normal. This is what we'd really like to do, to have a slider for each city. For example, one can be a science city, while one is a gold generating city. This way you don't have to build both buildings in every big city.

Another strat might be to be the tech leader and sell tech, so that the AI is your bank, again, not making as many banks, because the AI is your bank, so to speak. That's how my present game is going, but I'm also philosophical and organized. With cheap universities, but not cheap banks, it encourages me to make the best of that situation. So, I have 6 universities, and am about to construct Oxford, but only two banks so far. The AI has been my bank to a significant extent. I reward them with new tech and/or the option to fight one of my enemies. So, I have been the world's research leader, using the AI to supplement my finances, and to provide military support at times for a tech or two, saving me from just cranking out military units, instead of science, which I would rather be doing.

It’s worked well so far (pangea/emperor/marathon/Mao). I used my mercenary (and brother of the same faith) Alexander to take on leader Frederick early on, then it was to fight off Caesar, and then Louis for me, but then he was getting too powerful, so I payed Caesar two techs (constitution and chemistry) to attack him (I had to switch to Taoism first). It's worked out perfectly as Alexander did not have chemistry, and certainly not steel, so Alexander's empire is now mine. Now it’s all downhill as Tokugawa attacked, having neither chemistry nor steel, but having 20% of pangea to add to my 40%.

Organized becomes especially strong, as I pop rush courthouses (after theaters usually), to quickly reduce my overhead expenditures, allowing the juggernaut to keep rolling.

Originally posted by fed1943

2)Fin depends on some worked tiles;tiles:the natural ones(some specials,coastal)and the artificial ones(fast cottages with river,slow cottages no river,some later improvments,all of them needing some type of tiles).
The number of possible tiles depends on the number of cities and the number of worked tiles on the number of population(well,not so easy here:a citizen of city A cannot work a tile of city B,but...).
The diferent kinds of tiles depend (I guess)on some high math come from the World Builder rules;some correction needed because the placement of cities is not random.
(I know,the number of cottages depends just on the player'strategie;a better one,by sure,after reading your work,and that will be the ability of intervention).
(Also the time factor,mostly the research necessary to improve).

I think it's possible to simplify the multipliers that base commerce and incremental commerce due to being financial see. Someone (Paladin perhaps?) suggested that in the thread. I just went the extra step of looking specifically at the multipliers that the extra commerce sees, which is slightly different than overall base commerce. After having done it a few times, I'd say it's good enough to assume the same distribution as the overall commerce. In general, the more base commerce that a city has, the more extra commerce it will generate due to being financial. In the one game I looked at most carefully, probably a pessimistic example for financial, the equivalent gold savings were 11.5% for financial and 13.3% for organized, or the equivalent beaker savings, should you spend it all on science, were 13.3% for organized (still) or 10.9% for financial. These are relatively small differences in the scheme of things. keep in mind that cheap courthouses, lighthouses, and banks add to the savings. So an overall figure of goodness might be more like 15% to 20% depending on style of play and map when these buildings are considered, i.e., a good case for financial or organized should see about a 20% gain overall.

[uberfish]

The more 2-3 base commerce tiles you're working, the larger the percentage of your empire's commerce is being contributed by financial. So coastal squares, cottages in early growth stages, windmills on rivers etc give very good returns. I think financial can hold its own with organised even while expanding, if you work these sorts of tiles.

Financial accounts for a smaller proportion of commerce in the late game as trade routes become huge and Free Speech towns come into play. Then again, organized becomes less significant too because cities grow large enough to outpace the civic upkeep rates and you can use state property to kill all distance maintenance if needed.

Banks suck though compared to courthouses (or in fact any other discounted building.) I guess it's fair though since financial's free commerce is such a good bonus.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by uberfish

Banks suck though compared to courthouses (or in fact any other discounted building.) I guess it's fair though since financial's free commerce is such a good bonus.

A bank is great in your main money producing centre - ie the city with the shrine generating the best income. In a small, research focussed empire, it will be much better than a coutrhouse.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by uberfish

The more 2-3 base commerce tiles you're working, the larger the percentage of your empire's commerce is being contributed by financial. So coastal squares, cottages in early growth stages, windmills on rivers etc give very good returns. I think financial can hold its own with organised even while expanding, if you work these sorts of tiles.

Since coastal tiles give +2 commerce, I would think that a islands or continents game should be stronger for financial. But you're right, to maximize the benefit of financial, techniques for maximizing the number of tiles with more than 2 coins, without impacting production and food need to be explored.

Originally posted by uberfish

Financial accounts for a smaller proportion of commerce in the late game as trade routes become huge and Free Speech towns come into play. Then again, organized becomes less significant too because cities grow large enough to outpace the civic upkeep rates and you can use state property to kill all distance maintenance if needed.

It depends if you're playing peacefully, i.e., are there any foreign trade routes? When you're close to domination, I suspect trade routes are not worth so much as there are not many big cities left to trade with and a lot of them are not open. it depends on the victory condition. Overall, financial is a builder's trait, organized is a warmonger's trait.

Originally posted by uberfish

Banks suck though compared to courthouses (or in fact any other discounted building.) I guess it's fair though since financial's free commerce is such a good bonus.

I think the early buildings are worth the most, such as granaries, barracks, courthouses, theaters, since their effects last the whole game.

In the game I just finished, I had two banks, one in the capital, and one in my other commerce center, which also happened to have the religious shrine. I agree though. To see the full benefit of organized, it would have to be a large empire with lots of courthouses. Also, like uberfish says, state property eliminates the distance cost, but not the number of city cost, so courthouses effect is reduced. But inflation keeps going up, up, up.

In the previous game, it went into the modern era (1789AD), but was in a state of war as I won on domination (1790AD). Again, 33 cities, civics were police state, free speech, emancipation, state property, free religion, playing pangea/emperor/marathon/Mao. Organized benefit and benefit if I had the financial trait were virtually tied at 16.2% and 16.3% for ORG and FIN, relative to total income not including religious shrine income. Inflation was 73%.

Average base commerce gain (non resistance) 4.85
Average financial multiplier 0.43
Percentage loss if not ORG -0.162097844
Percentage gain if FIN 0.16314262

I went back to a save a few turns before this and made peace with Mansa to check the same stats without war weariness, this time with 28 cities, 26 being not in resistance. My income was quite a bit higher, so this had the effect of reducing the organized percentage, while financial went down to a lesser extent.

Gain for financial trait
Average base commerce gain (non resistance) 5.15
Average multiplier 0.43
Percentage loss if not ORG -0.108967152
Percentage gain if FIN 0.144768033

So there was a significant shift in favor of financial 10.8% vs. 14.5%. So, it looks like in the modern era, in peacetime, financial does considerably better, but the effects over the whole game must be considered, which still would seem to favor organized considering the effects of courthouses over most of the game. I built 24 theaters, 20 barracks, 18 courthouses, 18 libraries, 14 granaries, 11 universities, 9 observatories, 9 banks, 9 grocers, 7 forges, ….

So, twice as many courthouses as banks. I always end up building more theaters than any other building, with barracks and courthouses being a toss up. Interesting that there is no creative/organized leader. Another example of an overpowered combo perhaps? The ultimate military machine pop rushing cheap theaters and courthouses into captured cities.

One last test case, my most recent, and best game ever, playing as Mao again, pangea/emperor/marathon. In 1392AD, just a few turns before domination victory in 1402AD, I made peace to test the gains of organized and compare to financial. They were 12.9% for organized and 13.3% gain if financial, another virtual tie. Out of 31 cities, I built 24 theaters, 14 courthouses, 12 barracks, 8 granaries, 7 libraries, 6 universities (Oxford a few turns from completion), 5 forges, and 2 banks, Forbidden Palace, National Epic, Kong Miao, and 4 world wonders (Oracle (CoL sling shot), Great Library, Hagia Sophia, and Taj Mahal (I had 2 sources of marble). Again, the close tie is handily broken by the courthouse effect. Oh, and I had 3 lighthouses.

But I wanted to see if running a high science multiplier might allow me to sustain a tech advantage, using the AI to bankroll my tech. to a significant level, as well as fight off my enemies, while I focussed on tech. In the 6 top commerce/science cities in my core, the science multipliers were 1.1, 1.1, 1.0, 0.6, 0.5, and 0.5, while the financial multipliers were 0.5, 0.5, 0, 0, 0, 0. I didn't build any markets or grocers, since my large amount of luxuries and health resources allowed steady growth.

Basically, it's a rush to chemistry and steel, and then the game is over, so if you make it there first, you win, on marathon anyway. Banks are mostly a long term investment, amortized in the modern era.

[couerdelion]

I'll have to look at my own game

I'm currently playing as Qin on Emperor/Epic(Continents/Large) so I have the financial trait but not organised.

Having used practically all my natural space, I've acquired three cities from Roosevelt and one barbarian city and my capital its currently 25 years sailing from my furthest city. Date is c750 AD and currently researching Machinery to fuel the final punch for the US and give me the means to start taking easy land from the Indians.

Costs are starting to bite so it would be interesting to see the pure contrast of financial v organised in my current position. Given the sea, cottage and special tiles, I'm expecting financial to be the better despite the fact that my capital's location is not too convenient.

I will try to factor in the courthouse costs but will probably just show this as extra production for organised.

[Shaka II]

That would be interesting to see, and I suspect it would be a good case for financial, though the size of your empire might make the cheap courthouse aspect of organized important. It gets rather bad when you've expanded through conquest and haven't had time to build the courthouses in conquered cites. By mid game, a lot of conquered cities retain their courthouses, probably 50% probablity or so, which helps. But in 750AD, there might not be many built yet.

I think small continents is strong for financial, all those coastal tiles with +2 going to +3 with financial. To achieve the same incremental income on a pangea map, there would have to be cottages on that many tiles. Unless the effect is offset by the fact that cottages can grow into towns, while coastal tiles can't get much better, other than colossus. If that is the case, it could be an early to mid-game ploy mostly, with late game being less strong, since towns generate so much commerce (I think it's +7 with free speech). But early to mid-game is the most important period.

There's nothing quite like working out an actual example though. Count the coins and multipliers to get income and see how it compares to organized.

[fed1943]

Shaka II:I'm very interested,but as I said don't know math.I see two ways:
a)in several moments(1 city,2 cities as slingshot,3/4 cities and...)count how much Org and Fin would give(as 1gold=1commerce);the best would be with a passed game(s);
b)play Washington and from time to time(?)check.
And,yes,pangea.
Best regards,

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Shaka II

There's nothing quite like working out an actual example though. Count the coins and multipliers to get income and see how it compares to organized.

Forgot to work out the numbers but the costs are running pretty high right now and only a few courthouses are up. Must remember to include the lighthouses too.

I find that continents gives the game a more realistic edge. In some ways, you could argue that the tech tree would be different for certain types of map since the forces that drive technological advances would not be the same on a one-continent map.