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Using leader traits in the early game – Gandhi (Spiritual/Industrious)

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  • Using leader traits in the early game – Gandhi (Spiritual/Industrious)

    Many threads have looked at the comparisons between individual traits but what has not really been addressed is the combination of your leader traits and what sort of game this should lead to. With eight different traits, there are 28 possible combinations. No two leaders have the same combination and two of the combinations Phi/Ind and Org/Cre are not found in the leader options.

    I thought I might then start a thread discussing how to play to the advantages offered by a particular leader/civ.

    Leader 1 : Gandhi

    Traits (Spiritual – No Anarchy)
    (Industrious - +50% wonder build)
    Starting techs: Mysticism/Mining)
    Special unit: Fast Worker

    The one thing missing here is your starting position which will lead towards certain strategies and away from others. Some plans simply won’t work if you aren’t given the resources. However you should always bear in mind these traits and lean towards the advantages they give you. For all these points I will assume that you start with a river and have at least one resource tile by the river requiring a build tech other than mining. I will also assume that you have a reasonable number of woods to chop.

    This leader fits perfectly with a slingshot using a Great Prophet. With the industrious trait and starting with Mysticism, Stonehenge is positively begging to be built. To play it safe, you want to start building this straight away. The military can wait as can your first settler.

    Your tile selection does not need to worry about hammers since Stonehenge will actually be built by felling trees. Rather, tile selection will be driven by the choice of first tech and you basically have two options.

    1) Race for an early religion (either Meditation or Polytheism – you’ll need both)
    2) Directly to bronze-working for early worker and chop to speed along Stonehenge.

    For me, the first option is too much of a gamble at emperor level although would merit consideration at Prince level. It is just a small bonus and not entirely necessary. By snagging both Stonehenge and the Oracle you’ll be able to get Confucianism and Taoism and I tend to feel that two religion should be enough for most people. If you want more you can always capture other nations Shrine cities later. If you choose to ignore this then my only remaining advice is to play your best card on the race to religion and work the tile producing the most gold.

    Option 2) seems to be the best route for me in almost any situation. With mining as a starting tech, you are already 1/3 of the way there so it will not take long. It also gives the added benefit of displaying copper and giving some clues as to a good site for a second city. With this choice, tile selection should be based on city growth since you’ll want that extra population point to rush the worker to completion. From this point forward, I will be assuming my line of tech investment and tile working.

    Use your free warrior sparingly but try to go for those nice huts. But your warriors first and most important task is to see out a good second city site. You will probably want to keep this one safe so use whatever cover you can find and avoid fights that are too close to 50:50. Don’t stray too far from your capital because, after you’ve pop-rushed your worker, you may be needed back there if it is likely that it will quickly reach size 3 before the unhappiness from the pop-rush disappears.

    The first time you need to check back in the capital will be when it receives its border expansion. This is just to check that it is working the highest food tile available.

    Back in your city, your next move will be once your city has grown to size 2. You will then have to do a few calculations to determine when you want to start on a worker. Your optimal choice will be to start building a worker such that your discovery of bronze-working will coincide as closely as possibly with your worker just being in range of a pop-rush. Your city should probably still be using maximum growth but with Gandhi, should probably switch to fast worker before the city reaches 3 population.

    When you switch to fast worker, you need to check the tiles AGAIN to see that the worker will be produced as quickly as possible.

    When you finally discover Bronze-working you should immediately switch to slavery. With no anarchy, you then immediately rush your fast worker who will then set about clearing forests. Note also that your extra fast worker can start chopping straight away if there are woods directly bordering the city.

    The worker can then chop Stonehenge to completion and you could conceivable set the city to maximum production if you are worried about the time race. I would be quite surprised if this route failed to give you Stonehenge at any level simply because the combination of industrious trait and starting tech of Mysticism do not combine in another civilisation.

    With lower levels options will exist so that Stonehenge does not need to be rushed and you might, for example, wish to throw out another warrior before the wonder to give more exploration options. However, if Stonehenge can be built early this will reduce the appearance of the Great Prophet and if you have already got Meditation, Priesthood, Writing and Polytheism - but NOT MASONRY – you’ll be able to lightbulb Code of Laws with the Prophet and thus start your own private religion (taking advantage of another trait ability of Spirituals to build a quick temple)

    The point of this discussion is that all of my starting characteristics have been used in the early game. Industrious helped speed up Stonehenge, Spiritual saved time with the switch to slavery and your fast worker got those forests down more quickly. In fact, since your starting techs were all in this tech path, you’ve used them too.

  • #2
    What about the Pyramids? Being industrial means having a shot at building it. And having the pyramids means you can actually use your spiritual treat from the beginning. Avoiding that one turn of anarchy while going to slavery is nice but not overwelming.

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    • #3
      With a hindu civ you have a chance to grab Hinduism. I have done it several times on Emperor with Ghandi or Asoka. It seems that no other civ is very much interested to get that religion. Maybe the makers of the game wanted a semblance with reality and put Hinduism as a priority for the hindus only.

      Try it yourself as an experiment, you will get Hinduism more often than not.

      Anyway, your strategy is also good and well described.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Nacht
        What about the Pyramids? Being industrial means having a shot at building it. And having the pyramids means you can actually use your spiritual treat from the beginning. Avoiding that one turn of anarchy while going to slavery is nice but not overwelming.
        I had thought about Pyramids too and one of the biggest reasons by Gandhi might not be too interested in them is that I'm not sure they give so much benefit in the early game - I may be convinced otherwise.

        If you are looking just at representation then the benefits are

        +3 Happy: Not really an issue. You'll be chopping citizens anyway so unlikely to breach your happy limits. Maybe there are some circumstances when this might help but since I tend to play within the happy limits without +3 I can't see any way of using this in the early game and later I'll have temples to make up that deficit. In short, I would not expect happiness to be too great a problem

        +3 Science for specialists: A nice bonus when we finally build our library/temple. But is it worth the cost?

        +2 GP/Great Engineer: Works contrary to the leader trait. Since you can build those wonders at 66% cost anyway, the rush build option of a GE is of more value to a non-industrious leader

        BUT......

        the cost of going for the Pyramids is almost certain failure of the Philo slingshot. The diversion of resources would be too great and the Oracle will be long gone. In short, I compare the Representation civic here with the Pacifism civic from Philosophy and think that I prefer the +100 GP bonus.


        Regarding slavery, it is my opinion that it is the key early game civic giving you significant flexibility to convert food into production.

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        • #5
          Also, Pyramids require masonary and that precludes Burning Heretics for a Civil Service.

          Which is a lovely sentance to type.
          www.neo-geo.com

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          • #6
            I agree regarding representation. You don't need the science from specialists until you have a bunch of specialists. I usually just go ahead an reseach it after I have 3 or 4 specialists in my science city.
            Got my new computer!!!!

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            • #7
              So basically you are doing a double-slingshot?

              Using a prophet for CoL and the Oracle for CS?
              Got my new computer!!!!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Brizey
                So basically you are doing a double-slingshot?

                Using a prophet for CoL and the Oracle for CS?
                If you've had a bad start or whatever then doing a double slingshot is often the way out. Idealy, you still use the Oracle for Civil Service but failing that you can use it for Code of Laws and the Prophet for Civil Service. It won't finish it, but it will reduce it to a realistic cost.
                www.neo-geo.com

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                • #9
                  Moving on after Stonehenge

                  Originally posted by Brizey
                  So basically you are doing a double-slingshot?

                  Using a prophet for CoL and the Oracle for CS?
                  The GP would definitely be used for CoL but I would need to consider the situation at the time to decide what the Oracle would do.

                  The choice is really Philosphy or Civil Service and the choice is not really clear to me. Gandhi being Spiritual and Industrious would probably prefer the early second religion.

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                  • #10
                    So I finally played this one

                    Would you believe it the game dropped me on a desert island. And where the desert stops the tundra starts. So far, the only happiness resource around is silk so it would seem that religious happiness is going to be my priority for now. The calendar tech will lose me those nice GP points from Stonehenge

                    One thing I have noticed is that your real race for a Philo slingshot will be to get a Library up and put some scientists to work. Building either Stonehenge or the Oracle is no problem but, in comparison to Saladin's Philosophical trait, you have to wait longer for your Great Prophet.

                    Stonehenge can be finished scarily quickly. I managed this in 31 turns on epic speed (2760 BC) which is roughly equivalent to 21 turns. Delhi culture will surpass anything in the world for a long time with this jump start.

                    Regarding the choice of Philosophy and Civil Service, I am much more firmly of the view that the former is the correct choice despite meaning that Civil Service is only 75% researched by your second Great Prophet. Without the benefits of Pacifism your second Great Prophet will just take ages to arrive.

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                    • #11
                      The AI doesn't seem to rate the Parthenon much; you're going through Polytheism anyway - you may be able to build it to speed up your Great People rates.
                      Participating in my threads is mandatory. Those who do not do so will be forced, in their next game, to play a power directly between Catherine and Montezuma.

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                      • #12
                        Parthenon for Gandhi

                        The Parthenon is another wonder, like the Pyramids, that never really appears on my radar screen and I can see why. It’s expensive and it only gives half the benefit that I get from Pacifism. At a push, with Marble, I might just build it and hope that someone else beats me to it (thus converting hammers to gold at a nice rate).

                        But in general, I suspect you ought to have better uses for 400 hammers.

                        On another subject, I have seen people talking mentioning that Industrious traits allow half price construction of wonders. I noticed that this appears somewhere in the game but the reality is that you only get a +50% bonus for wonders and so build them at 67% of the price.

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                        • #13
                          More on the Parthenon

                          I’ve taken a closer look at the Parthenon and I am rather of the view that it ought really to be low priority for anyone. The marble may make it a little better but even then a mere +50% GPP points doesn’t translate into the sort of numbers you can get when comparing a production against gold/science.

                          We can value the Parthenon simply by comparing the output relative to being without it. Let’s suppose that we have already generated 3 GPs by the time it is completed and will generate another 7 before it is obsolete. This would imply that we have produced 4900 of “valuable” GPP points - those GPP generated in cities not producing GPs have no value. If we also assume that we are running the Pacifism civic in this period then the simple effect of the Parthenon is to turn that 4900 into 6125. In other words we have created one more Great Person. We can crudely value this at around 2000 gold.

                          In other words, 400 of production is turned into 2000 gold over a “long period” – let’s say 400 turns.

                          Suppose we now compare this with some other investment. For the cost of 40 hammers, a missionary, for example will (with a fairly high probability) generated 400 gold over that same period with those numbers also subject to receive a multiplier of 25%-100% for most of that time. The unmodified return on a missionary here is 10 gold/hammer compared to 5 gold/hammer for Parthenon.

                          Other investments like libraries, granaries, harbours, lighthouses, workers, settlers, would almost certainly generate better returns on your production investment.

                          Although this is a fairly simple analysis, it would appear that, without marble, I would prefer to leave the Parthenon for the Greeks and the modern era 20th century tourists. There are better things for me to spend my hammers on.

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                          • #14
                            Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012

                            When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah

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