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Benefit of leader traits for slingshot attempts

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  • Benefit of leader traits for slingshot attempts

    Here are a few thoughts on how different traits might help your slingshot attempt. I've put them in my order of preference below.

    Financial – Big bonus if conditions are right. This includes coastal start with sea food resources and fishing tech or river start with decent food. The latter usually calls for the pottery route to writing. Any early game happy resources are a BIG bonus. If these are discovered on your travels, you probably want that second city up quickly.

    Philosophical – Works with any technique that drives growth through GPs. Probably better than financial for a slingshot

    Industrious – Probably the third most useful for a slingshot because of the reliance of wonders. But the benefits here are not as strong as either unless you have a starting position that is unsuited to a financial civ.

    Spiritual – Should not be underestimated. With any slingshot you’ll make at least three civic/religion changes so you’ve saved three turns straight away – although perhaps only one during the actual slingshot. In the religious slingshot you can get temples up in double time (and possibly make a tidy production surplus from some timely chopping). At lower difficulties, the early religion is also feasible. Higher levels it is only possible with a healthy commerce tile to start with.

    Aggressive – Not really much use although one you start building warriors, you’ll have that little extra comfort that they won’t die too quickly. Early barracks are likely to be beneficial, particularly if you have a second city.

    Creative – Almost useless, particularly for the religious slingshot which will, in any case get the early obelisk benefit for a second city prior to the religious culture bonus.

    Expansive – Not a great deal of use but the cheap granaries will help to fuel a slave-driven slingshot. A nice fit too if you’re lucky enough to get floodplains.

    Organised – Since you’re not going to be building lots of cities and courthouses during the slingshot, it seems, at face value that this will have give no help to the attempt. The slingshot itself is just a small diversion before you start to expand your empire through colonisation or conquest.


    My order of preference is (purely for the slingshot)

    Philosophical
    Financial
    Industrious
    Spiritual
    Aggressive
    Expansive
    Creative
    Organised.

    All of the top four give “positive” benefits: Philosophical (GPP), Financial (commerce), Industrious (wonder production), Spiritual (time or food/production/commerce from saved anarchy).

    Three of the others are more of the nature of insurance or of a cost reduction nature so if you’re careful enough you might be able to avoid the problems that they solve through more careful play.

    Creative is just plain poor.
    "

  • #2
    Very good analysis. Couldn't have said it any better.

    The only one I would change is org. On emperor+ it saves you 2 gold / turn right off the start. That's equivalent to having the financial bonus for 2 cottages already. So in the same way that financial improves your chances, so too, does organized.

    Otherwise 100% agree.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by The_Paladin
      Very good analysis. Couldn't have said it any better.

      The only one I would change is org. On emperor+ it saves you 2 gold / turn right off the start. That's equivalent to having the financial bonus for 2 cottages already. So in the same way that financial improves your chances, so too, does organized.

      Otherwise 100% agree.
      You know I’ve seen these costs mentioned on other threads but have yet to see any city maintenance or civic costs appear when I set up my second city. Almost all my games are at emperor level.

      Now if they did then organised would be a lot higher on the list.

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      • #4
        The -2 upkeep / turn for the first city came in the latest patch for emperor+ difficulties. Before that it didn't exist. That may be why you haven't noticed it.

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        • #5
          Don't forget that one of the primary reasons for the slingshot is to be able to run Bureaucracy, which isn't the cheapest of civics - Organized can help with this.
          Participating in my threads is mandatory. Those who do not do so will be forced, in their next game, to play a power directly between Catherine and Montezuma.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'd also rate Organized quite highly for the courthouses - Org can make much better use of those fast courthouses!

            The ranking for me would probably look like this:
            • Philosophical
              Slingshots are better with Great Prophets. I mean a normal slingshot is okay, but a double slingshot, getting CoL, Philosophy and CS in rapid sucession is just wow.
            • Organized
              You want courthouses sooner rather than later, and getting into expensive civics sooner is good.
            • Spiritual
              Religions are good with the cheap temples, and a slingshot can pick up 2 religions guaranteed.


            For the others I don't think there is any particular merit. For example with Financial it's often better to just spam a bunch of cottages. Industrious should focus on Pyramids, Great Lighthouse or Farseer (fast forges). Aggressive, creative and expansionist should secure some territory.

            A' few notes:
            Starting with Mysticism is critical if you want to enchance your slingshot with prophets.
            Starting with Fishing can be good, for lakes and seafood, that early commerce can rock.
            Mining is also a good tech to start with, since it's often the only worker tech you need. (for a floodplains+river hills start)
            Being Tokugawa, or a lesser degree Hatty or French may make it possible to justify researching Pottery first. Bear in mind though, that cottages will slow your growth and the rate you build the Oracle.

            Overall, I consider Oracle basically mutually exclusive of cottages, focus on one or the other in the early game, either will provide the beakers you need.

            By far the most critical factor is the start, the absolute IDEAL slingshot start is a river with 3 floodplains and 3 river mines. However any start with a mix of easy food, easy commerce and easy hammers will do the trick. For example a grassland pigs and a gold mine would work. Also great is seafood + hills. These kind of starts cry out for a slingshot.

            If you get a "one tile lake, a cow and a bunch of grassland start" then the only thing to do is grab pottery fast and get some cottages going, forget about the slingshot, you gotta dig yourself out of that starting hole. A 50% enhanced hole is still a hole.

            So pretty much some starts are suitable for slingshots with any leaders, and some for no leaders. In between the traits might make a difference.

            Comment


            • #7
              I think the thread is getting confused

              I am looking at the benefit of the traits in ACHIEVING the slingshot not in your position after the slingshot. Cheap courthouses are not going to help you get the slingshot simply because once you've built them you should practically have finished the risky part of the slingshot.

              It is a separate question regarding the post-slingshot position but even here an expensive civic with two cities is hardly going to break the bank. A few cottages in the capital for a financial civ will more than cover the extra costs of running Bureaucracy.

              Comment


              • #8
                Well you're not running a large empire by definition after doing a slingshot, so courthouses won't be a priority for a while anyway. The main benefit of Organized for a slingshot is it speeds up your initial research a bit, and makes dropping a 2nd city early more feasible.

                Financial is probably better if you have a good river/grassland site, there's no reason you can't build the oracle and then work cottages in your capital after that multiplied by the bureaucracy bonus - they start at 2/0/3 after all. Or if you're coastal.

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                • #9
                  I realised yesterday that Creative does give a small bonus to the slingshot. The culture bonus gives a little advantage to the defense of any cities set up so that the +20%/+40% will be reached more quickly.

                  I would therefore place Creative ahead of Aggressive in 5th place for the benefit it gives to a slingshot. Still not great but probably a better defensive bonus than the free promotion.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Blake [*]Philosophical
                    Slingshots are better with Great Prophets. I mean a normal slingshot is okay, but a double slingshot, getting CoL, Philosophy and CS in rapid sucession is just wow.
                    Blake, I'm still learning all the cool tricks with the game...can you explain how you would be able to snag all 3 of the techs you mentioned with the Philosophical trait? My brain seems to not grasp the concept this morning. I'm sure I'll feel dumb after you explain it.

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                    • #11
                      It's not obvious at first

                      An early Stonehenge will give you points towards a Great Prophet and the Philosophical bonus will make this arrive more quickly. When he does, he can discover Code of Law.

                      If you've timed the Oracle to arrive then you can then select either Civil Service or Philosophy. By selecting Philosophy you not only get another religion but get the option to select the Pacifism civic for +100% GPP bonus thus accelerating the next Prophet

                      With at least two religions you can have two temples which I believe will allow two priests.

                      Standard GP points = 2 (Henge) + 2 (Oracle) + 6 (Priests) = 10
                      + Philosophical Bonus (+100%) = 10
                      + Pacifism Bonus (+100%) = 10

                      = 30 GP points per turn.

                      At standard speed this will give you a second Great Prophet in just 7 turns!!!

                      Your second Great Prophet can part discover Civil Service.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Is there something I'm missing here?

                        My generated Prophets have only allowed me to "light bulb" research into religious techs. In the Oracle build timeframe, we are talking about Monotheism and Theology.

                        I'd love to get them to discover something *more* useful........

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          THe CRITICAL thing that makes the double-slingshot work is:
                          DO NOT RESEARCH MASONARY.

                          If you research masonary, that will open up Monotheism, which will open up Theology, which will open up Divine Right, and prophets will ALWAYS prefer one of those.

                          So what you need to do, is quickly research Mysticism and start on stonehenge, research to Priesthood, then Writing. After writing you need to finish off Polytheism/Meditation (whichever one you didn't get), that clears the path to lightbulb CoL.

                          Once you get the 2nd prophet you can use him for CS, you will need to add about 8 turns of research, you can do this research in advance if you wish.

                          If you wish, you may continue to leave Masonary un-researched and go on to Lightbulb Monarchy. However Monarchy isn't that expensive a tech, but it's worth considering especially if you have no stone/marble to hook up.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: I think the thread is getting confused

                            Originally posted by couerdelion
                            I am looking at the benefit of the traits in ACHIEVING the slingshot not in your position after the slingshot. Cheap courthouses are not going to help you get the slingshot simply because once you've built them you should practically have finished the risky part of the slingshot.
                            Any leaders can achieve a slingshot with the right start. it might be "easier" for a financial leader if they have some freebie +2 commerce tiles, but given the presence of those +2 commerce tiles any leader can do it.

                            A slingshot is a combination of two things:
                            1) Research.
                            2) Hammers.

                            It is a separate question regarding the post-slingshot position but even here an expensive civic with two cities is hardly going to break the bank. A few cottages in the capital for a financial civ will more than cover the extra costs of running Bureaucracy.
                            If you take the time to lay down cottages, you'll miss the Oracle and the slingshot will fail. If you don't build cottages you're not really playing Financial properly.

                            Thanks to organized, the reduced expenses might make it possible in a few situations (as I said, any situation with enough commerce for financial to boost, has enough commerce without financial...). Spiritual's turn saved here, turn saved there, and cheap temples might be the difference between success and failure (honestly I think cheap temples are the biggest factor). Philosophical is awesome for enhancing the slingshot and making it more reliable. Industrious WOULD be okay, except it can't come with Philosophical, a Phi Stonehenge is much greater than a Ind Stonehenge. However Ghandi is a pretty good slingshotter because he has Spi too, but Ghandi's success largely relies on either a high commerce start or founding an early religion.

                            What it comes down to is any leader can slingshot with the RIGHT START.

                            ONLY Philosophical Leaders can slingshot with ANY START.

                            I also only consider success as a 100% chance of success, a failed slingshot is extremely bad voodoo so it needs to be doable extremely quickly.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              @Blake:

                              Nice clear explaination, solved my question. Much appreciated.

                              Can you now deliver a nice, clear explaination to my Wife as to why I should have more time available to play this game?

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