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**gus_smedstad** · February 3, 2006, 08:17

You don't mention difficulty level.

Getting The Wheel, Pottery, and Archery is questionable if you're going to slingshot. Yes, since GW is financial it's tempting, but you're delaying Civil Service so long that it's likely the AI will build the Oracle first. It's better to go through Priesthood to get to Writing.

IMHO the point to Bronze Working is chopping out the Library. If you can run 2 Scientists, the moment you get the Library you boost research to 17, over twice your base rate without commerce tiles. That more than makes up for the cost of researching Bronze Working when reaching for Code of Laws.

If you don't have enough food, or you have a couple of decent commerce tiles or one excellent one like a gold mine, rushing the library is less important.

- Gus

**couerdelion** · February 3, 2006, 08:30

Bronze is almost crucial to the slingshot

It gives you the pop-rush and chop options to get those buildings up fast.

Assuming GW is George Washington, I can’t see the slingshot is difficult. You have one of the three traits (Financial, Philosophical, Industrious) that helps in a slingshot.

Your time here must have been spent in generating all those new cities and also in messing around with Archery. In fact, I believe that you have several superfluous techs that don’t help you with the slingshot and therefore increase the risk that it will fail. These were Pottery, Archery, Polytheism, Writing, Wheel. I can’t see any way that they helped to accelerate any stage of the process.

**samspock** · February 3, 2006, 10:08

I think that mining and bronze would be almost esential in this case. If you don't have them you may be wasting all that effort on other cities if you don't know where the copper is. The better way would be to get them, hook up the copper (wheel if not near a common river) and then go do a quick conqure while you are working on the slingshot. When you are done you probably will end up with an empire of about the same size as what you did, one less rival, a better military and a bunch of conquest gold.

Going with a civ that starts with mining would make this a bit easier though.

**unamablebuiler** · February 3, 2006, 10:14

it's only prince 7 civs continents huge epic found aztecs + germans on the same land. i only consider my self average in ability at best.

Archaery is a nescessity otherwise you apnly have warriors
pottery is for cottages
2 of those cities originated or will originate from New york. second AFAIK writing is a prereq for code of laws Also remember that it takes 2 techs to get to bronze working with GW.

Also George Wasington starts with 2 techs that aren't normally on the road to CS normally.

Gus_smedstad
if you don't have cottages how do you get 17 beakers in one city that early ? the library only boosts knowledge by 25 % with 2 scientist you get 6 even wtih a monastry you would be only at 9 at best where's the other 8 beakers? that means atleast annother 2 coastal squares being worked and possibly a light house. which requires sailing

i also give you the challenge though it might not be much of one for the best players. Achive the slingshot with GW faster than i did. it shouldn't be hard if i can do it

it may be a bad descision to ignore bronze working but i made a descison to ignore that line for a while as it leads to resource dependent units. and you don'f have copper close to you youre then stuffed when the barbarians come cause you are stuck with warriors versus archers or axes.

The other reason to see if it can be done is tho see if there are other benifits that could counter some of the drawbacks of the CS lines i have seen. if you don't try something new how do you progress?

i also said that one of the major drawbacks of this method is its higher riskbot in obtaining the oracle and lack of defense.

By the way thanks for the feed back

**tetley** · February 3, 2006, 10:56

What if you have horses?

**couerdelion** · February 3, 2006, 11:21

You know I might have been confusing this with another slingshot post where the final position showed no developed squares. Hence the “what use was pottery?” note. Thanks also for reminding me that Writing was a Prereq for Code of Law. How stupid of me not to know that

Lack of defense is a big problem for any serious slingshot attempt and my own experience suggests that you are better off just trying to box clever with what you have. If things get really bad you can always switch production to pop another warrior or two though once you’ve started on CoL you have pretty well fixed your target. I remember once fighting of at least 2 barbarian axemen and 4 archers with warriors in one slingshot attempt. One archer stopped to burn down a hamlet of mine but saved me the trouble of rebuilding it. That lot didn’t even destroy a single gold mine I had. It can be done.

p.s. I was a little lucky with some combats and was certainly grateful for at least one warrior with melee promotion. Even that only gets 3.7 v 5 when defending a gold mine on a hill so I often made sure I had two warriors in the city and two on the hill.

p.p.s. I failed the slingshot by a short mile.

**Alkis2** · February 3, 2006, 11:53

According to your post you discovered CoL at 360 BC and finished the Oracle at 240 BC. That's really too late. It won't work on Monarch and above and even on Prince you were exceptionally lucky the AI didn't beat you to that.

You have to cut something, maybe one city less or some technologies less. But I agree that BW is not absolutely necessary.

**couerdelion** · February 3, 2006, 12:05

Game speed issues

This looks like Epic speed which I think shows very slow development in relation to time. I have never lost a CS slingshot before 1000 BC at that speed (Emperor) and have sometimes completed as late as 250 BC.

Still, the slingshot should really be completed by 500 BC for you to stand a reasonable chance of completing. Anything before 800 BC and you've got a very strong chance.

**unamablebuiler** · February 3, 2006, 17:44

if i cut ou the second settler from washington and a build a worker earlier it may be possibile to cut as many as 50 turns off not really sure though
couple of techs can be cut like the wheel if i am not going for copper or horeses till later but it would need to be caught up early too.
New yourk will probably need a worker early too
it did get to size 4 without and development easily. i think i could do better using washington without bronze working

it did take a few tries from 4000 BC to get there mostly cause of citiies being lot to barbs rush attacking cities directly even 2 archers can fail if hit by 4 axemen in 1 turn

unulcky in war thats all i spose

it took animal husbandry too find horses something which i skipped despite having cattle and sheep though not immedieately. horses were also a while away in terms of distance more than 15 tiles infact

**Crossfire** · February 3, 2006, 18:48

Even on Prince I feel that if I can't get the slingshot done by 800 I am not going to make it. The number of times I have seen it work at 200 is slim. I think you could do a much more focused slingshot without chopping so have another go and post it up. I think you might be surprised at how early you can complete it when you find the right build for you.

**unamablebuiler** · February 4, 2006, 17:30

i will do that with another map though it might take some time cos its my bday now not sure if i should put it in a second thread though ?

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sling shot without chopping

sling shot without chopping

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