National Wonders

[Common Sensei]

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
Regarding Forbidden Palace, there's a suggestion that goes against my grain: place the FP right in the core of your original empire, smack among your earliest and presumably most productive cities. The build a new Palace in the heart of your next biggest concentration (like an early victim's capital). [Personally I *hate* to move my capital--maybe because I grew up in Washington DC!!--but I understand the theory.]

As I remember it, technically, the United States has moved its capital in its history, from Philadelphia to Washington D.C.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Solomwi
I wouldn't say HE/IW is the worst possible combination, but I greatly prefer HE/WP. Instead of twice as much cannon fodder, I can use that city to produce an elite vanguard of troops (the 4 xp translates into an extra promotion out of the box with one or any two of Pentagon, Vassalage or Theocracy) while the IW city, along with others, can flesh out the ranks with cannon fodder. That also gives me the flexibility to dedicate my HE/WP city to troop production while I divert the IW city to a wonder or project, if need be.

I've always put the National Epic in my wonder-heavy capital, but I'm starting to question that. Has anybody run the numbers on whether it's more productive over the long haul to have two cities running neck and neck with GPP or have them as concentrated as possible in one city?

(shrug) I'm running two GPP cities in my current game. I have my capital, which has most of my wonders, and a fishing village with 3 food resources that I have the National Epic in and a ton of specilists.

The big advantage of doing it that way instead of just using my capital is that I can easily pick what leader my second city produces, because almost all of my GPP points in that city come from specilists instead of wonders. (shrug) I might get more leaders if I was doing it all in my capitial, but with all the wonders there I wouldn't be able to make a prophet or an engineer or a scientist on demand the way I can now.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Common Sensei


As I remember it, technically, the United States has moved its capital in its history, from Philadelphia to Washington D.C.

Canada too, from Kingston to Ottawa.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by PaganPaulwhisky
I dont think there is much of a point in pairing ironworks with heroic epic. I use my heroic epic city to constantly churn out units which makes Westpoint an awesome combination here. I would rather use the Ironworks in a city where I am actually building important late game wonders / buildings. If heroic epic is in a high production city, you don't really need ironworks here as units are much less expensive and will build very fast anyway.

(shrug) One extra advancement usually means, at best, in the most ideal situation, a +20% to +25% bonus to fighting, when you can guess in advance what situation or what types of units you'll most likely be facing. I'd much rather have +50% more production, and thus +50% more units, then that.

[PaganPaulwhisky]

You are not taking the time factor into account here. I usually have Westpoint far far earlier in the game which means I can churn out experienced units for many yrs before I even get to IW. I think this more than compensates for the +50% bonus prod bonus. Also When I get IW I can use that city to produce modern units If I need them. Ill just have two unit pumps instead of one.

[tetley]

Naw, build FP on your border--right in the middle of those cities that are going to be yours.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by PaganPaulwhisky
You are not taking the time factor into account here. I usually have Westpoint far far earlier in the game which means I can churn out experienced units for many yrs before I even get to IW. I think this more than compensates for the +50% bonus prod bonus. Also When I get IW I can use that city to produce modern units If I need them. Ill just have two unit pumps instead of one.

(shrug) In my last game I had ironworks first, mostly because I didn't have horses and so didn't really care about that tech (Westpoint is the same tech as Cavelry, right?).

But yeah, there are some games where it's worthwhile to get something NOW then to get something better later. It's not uncommon for me to end up with a sub-par combo of national wonders in my capatial for that reason. And there are other games were you're too busy building units in your national epic city to build any second wonder until later. Ideally, though, all else being equal, I think heroic epic+ironworks is a stronger combanation.

[MasterDave]

I generally do not like building any further wonders in my Heroic Epic city mainly because the time it takes to build those wonders is time that you are not building the cheap troops. I am often reluctant to even build factories and power plants in these cities for the same reason, although I will eventually. I like using the city with Iron works to get the expensive late game wonders such as the Pentagon and Three Gorges.

One thing that I like to do if my capital is in a high-food area (which it usually is) is to build National Epic there early, and then get the Globe theater there. The infinite happiness gets really powerful when your city can get up to size 28 or 30! This alone has sometimes kept my empire functioning in periods of extreme war weariness.

Wall street is best used in a city with a holy shrine with a widespread religion. This can mean an extra 30-40 gold per turn!

I do not think I have ever built a red cross because I am a trade whore and usually have plenty of health resources late in the game, precluding the need for building hospitals. Nor have I ever moved my capital. I do not think that a palace in a new city counts as a national wonder, but I do not know first-hand.

[JackRudd]

A palace in a new city doesn't count as a national wonder, no. Palaces have their own special rules and refuse to fit into any of the standard building categories.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by Common Sensei


As I remember it, technically, the United States has moved its capital in its history, from Philadelphia to Washington D.C.

You are correct...and before that from New York to Philadelphia. George Washington was inaugurated on the steps of Federal Hall on Wall Street.

Hmm...I suppose many would consider that an interesting symbolic location!

[uberfish]

If my starting spot isn't very good, I have moved my Palace just to run bureaucracy at a better science city site.

I much prefer splitting heroic epic and ironworks so I have two good troop production centres rather than one, and it's more flexible as one of them can train troops when the other is on buildings.

[bahoo]

This seems to be a powerful yet overlooked combination that I often use.

National Epic / Globe Theater

Usually this ends up in an early city that may have built a few world wonders and also happens to be in a very good position for massive amounts of food. I focus all of the improvements on food (windmills or farms) and ideally end up with a huge population (with no worry of unhappiness) and a ton of specialists. The nice thing is, with no other nationals that require you to use a certain specialist you can switch all the great people around to maximize your chances of getting what you want.

Additionally, in the harder difficulty levels you often have less GP points as a result of wonders since the AI will get more of them, so specialist GP points become more important.

[Blake]

Something about the Forbidden Palace:
State property obsoletes it by eliminating all distance upkeep. This is the main reason why strategies of moving around the FP/Palace don't really fly, it's often hard to build the FP alone before getting State Property and making it all moot, let along building the FP in your core then moving the palace a couple times. Half the time when conquering I'm too busy to ever build the FP, by the time the option comes up I'm a couple dozen turns from Communism. Further compound this with the FP wasting a valuable National Wonder slot - you normally want to build it in a high-hammer city which will probably be an excellent candidate for Ironworks (I find most core cities are usually too cottage-cheesed, so IW goes into a conquered city retrofited for hammers). Altough in some cases a FB + Ironworks city is okay, since not many things go well with the IW, only wallstreet (if planned for), or national epic if intending to capitalize on the engineer slots and the late game wonder GPP.

Normally the only time I build FP is as an Organized leader.

[Urban Ranger]

Quick question about the Ironworks

What does the Ironworks do exactly? It says +50% hammer for iron and coal. Is that for the city it is in only? If it is not should I care where it is built?

[rjmatsleepers]

Re: Quick question about the Ironworks

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
What does the Ironworks do exactly? It says +50% hammer for iron and coal. Is that for the city it is in only? If it is not should I care where it is built?

The bonus is only for the city where you build it unfortunately. So it pays to build it in your highest production city.

RJM at Sleeper's