Permanent alliances and cultural victory

[MightyTiny]

Haven't ever been in a permanent alliance in any of my games, and was wondering about something. If I understand it correctly, a permanent alliance means that the allied parties are treated as one when it comes to victory - one party builds the space ship, for example, and both are considered winners. Correct?

What about cultural victory then - can this victory condition be "distributed" among the allied nations, so that, say, one nation has 2 legendary cities and the other has 1?

Would that constitute cultural victory?

[Solver]

Yes, yes.

[MightyTiny]

Thanks, and thanks!

[Solver]

BTW... there's a reason why permalliances are off by default. They're unbalanced big time in singleplayer. If you team up with another AI, not only your research improves very significantly, but the combined military will also wipe anyone out.

[GeoModder]

Nothing that stops the AI from doing the same on a player.
Heck, in a sense the AI acts as a combined military once a player is weakened enough.

[Solver]

I don't think AIs really sign permalliances between themselves.

And a combined military of permallied nations is stronger than the combined military of two nations attacking the same target.

[TheArsenal]

Originally posted by Solver
I don't think AIs really sign permalliances between themselves.

And a combined military of permallied nations is stronger than the combined military of two nations attacking the same target.

They do. In a game with 11 players remaining, I’ve seen an alliance of 3 AIs (I was in a two nation alliance).

[Solver]

Really? Great. Yay .

[Fosse]

One really fun endgame had two AIs on the other side of the world in a Permanant Alliance building up a space race lead before I could convince my second closest friend to sign our own. We won by two turns only because of my spys' efforts overseas.

On the whole they are a tad unbalancing, but I like them as a way to speed inevitable victory (like the time my best friend Cyrus and me held half the world due to a bunch of joint wars, and signing a PA led to Domination victory two turns later). If the game is won and the number 2 or 3 civ is your pal it feels more natural and rewarding to me to win together than it does to have a slightly artificial feeling space race.

[Solver]

But then again, you can argue that it makes it too easy. If there's one AI which is on par with you, you have to really try to win the game. With permalliances, you can just convince him to sign one, which is usually easier done.

[madmaxxam]

I think it's more useful on larger maps when it can be a pain to get domination victory alone. Although apparently "being too powerful" can be a reason your best friend won't sign a permanent alliance Seems like a situation where I would hop right on board. And every game that I've had the permanent alliance option on at least 2 AI civs have formed one. Often before I could get in one myself. It can make it more of a challenge if you are #1 while #2 and #3 form an alliance jumping way ahead of you.

[TheArsenal]

I almost always play with this feature on and Space Ship Victory off. I have never been able to swing a three nation alliance, although I’ve read on these boards of some who have. I have even had the situation where two reasonably powerful nations “show a willingness” on the Diplo Screen to enter into a PA, but once I sign with one, the other nation takes the option off the table. This has happened on multiple occasions. Whether it is due to the two nations not being on good enough terms to sign with each other*, bad timing, or a mechanism in the game to keep alliances from being overpowered toward the leading player, I can’t say.

I too find my entering into alliances will trigger some other AI nations to form their own.

*Anecdotally, I don’t believe strong relations alone are enough for an alliance. It looks as though some time must be spent in a Defensive Pact first.

[gdgrimm]

Re: Permanent alliances and cultural victory

Originally posted by MightyTiny
Haven't ever been in a permanent alliance in any of my games, and was wondering about something. If I understand it correctly, a permanent alliance means that the allied parties are treated as one when it comes to victory - one party builds the space ship, for example, and both are considered winners. Correct?

What about cultural victory then - can this victory condition be "distributed" among the allied nations, so that, say, one nation has 2 legendary cities and the other has 1?

Would that constitute cultural victory?

Trying to bring this thread back to the OP's questions concerning Cultural Victory and PA's.....

I'm not sure if that would work well. Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen the AI pursue a Cultural Victory. So if you can't control your partners culture slider, you're not likely to get any value from the alliance. On the other hand, you could get the increased benefits of having 2 cities with the Hermitage.

Now that I think of it, maybe the best gambit for PA's when going Cultural is to team with somebody that has a strong military. Let them scare away and/or fight the wars, while you make the 3 culture cities. In some ways, that's a little like how I win my culture victories -- i.e. stay buddy-buddy with the biggest and baddest civs, and convince them to attack any civ that goes to war with me.

[Fosse]

Originally posted by Solver
But then again, you can argue that it makes it too easy. If there's one AI which is on par with you, you have to really try to win the game. With permalliances, you can just convince him to sign one, which is usually easier done.

Oh, no doubt, but for the way I approach the game it also makes it more fun. I never have liked that most 4x games reach a point where you're racing your oldest ally for a somewhat unrealistic victory condition. It feels like a more complete history in the games when I can really join forces and bring an end to things.

The shared victory option in SMAC was a step in the right direction, but there was still definatly always a clear victor and a tag-along. This way both parties can really contribute (though with the AI you are often carrying way more of the load, but again, it's for fun).

For me, it doesn't make the game "too easy," because for me the game has mostly wrapped up by the time such alliances are seriously considered and if I keep playing for too long I'm just going through the motions, which is less fun. In a competitve MP or comparison SP game I'd certainly raise an eyebrow at a player who wins by space-race with two Allies launching some of the pieces.