Surviving the Failed Slingshot

[Simplicity]

I've played a few games now attempting to execute a standard CS slingshot, and without fail the AI gets the Oracle a couple of turns before me. Now sure, there were a couple of things I could have done to speed myself up. That's not my question.

My real question is: Anyone have strategies for surviving a failed CS Slingshot? It happens often enough...

On a failed slingshot you have a number of disadvantages:
1) Reduced expansion. If you're doing it right, you probably only have one or (maybe) two cities. Without slingshot, you'd likely be up to three.

2) Poor improvements. You likely had to put off improving some of your terrain.

3) Almost no military. Weak units where they do exist.

But you have some advantages as well:

1) One core high-research city (sure, no bureacracy yet, but... you'll get there eventually).

2) Consolation prize gold from the failed oracle build.

3) A possible religion founding with Code of Laws...

Is a failed slingshot a death sentance? What victory path would you aim for?

[Velociryx]

Well, a lot of the "pieces parts" of the CS Slingshot are things that rivals cannot take from you. In fact, the ONLY thing a rival can take from you is the Oracle itself. Unfortunate when this happens, to be sure, but it can be gotten around.

* The GP Scientist for the academy...that's all you.
* If you miss the Oracle, there's nothing stopping you from forging ahead with generating a prophet (several ways to go about this, even if you miss the religious founding at CoL...either a) pick up some other religion, or b) start building--and concentrating religious-oriented wonders in one of your cities, or both.
* Of course, the PHI trait helps in this regard, but even if you are not PHI, snagging Parthenon can help bridge that gap and speed things along (and for that matter, even if you ARE PHI, an added 50% increase can surely come in handy).

I very seldom beeline for CoL when performing the Slingshot, preferring the flexibility that Bronze gives me, even if it raises the stakes that Oracle might be missed, and doing so means that I've got defensive options simply not available to those who choose not to (axemen...the ultimate answer to barbs and rivals in the ancient age). If you didn't, then recommend you make for it straight away after your failed attempt, and proceed from there. Once you HAVE bronze, there are generally enough trees around to chop Parthenon someplace, and then you're firing on all cylinders again (and even if you miss it, you can still generate G-Men and use them to catapult your research, giving you admittedly not as good or big of a benefit, but also nothing to sneeze at.

-=Vel=-

[Quillan]

Well, I'm assuming your following the standard path of getting writing, building a library in the capital, and using that to help you research Code of Laws. If you're being beaten to the Oracle by just a couple of turns, then you've either got or will be finishing Code of Laws in the next turn or two. Option one is to go ahead and research Civil Service manually. That will take a long time, but your prep to this point is likely to have you in the best position to do so.

I would suggest option two, however: grab Alphabet if you don't already have it and try to trade Code of Laws with your neighbors for some of your missing techs. Research any back techs you need but can't trade for, then go on for Civil Service. Use the time all this takes to counter your weaknesses. Your capital is probably large, and with great production overall. Use that. Crank out some military units interspersed with settlers/workers. Grab new land, and develop what you have. You'll still probably get Civil Service well before everyone else; adopt Bureaucracy and rake in the bonus. You'll be 20-40 turns later than would have been if the slingshot had worked, but you'll be more developed now.

[Simplicity]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Well, a lot of the "pieces parts" of the CS Slingshot are things that rivals cannot take from you. In fact, the ONLY thing a rival can take from you is the Oracle itself. Unfortunate when this happens, to be sure, but it can be gotten around.

The biggest problem I find with a failed slingshot tends not to be what is taken from me, but rather what I have to *pay* to execute the manuever. The biggest cost (to me at least) is territory. The failure to expand my borders tends to mean that my neighbors encroach upon my territory more than I might have let them if I could have gotten another settler out.

I often also build bronze working, but the fact that I have fewer cities means that I don't always have copper to do anything useful with it other than chop.

In some ways, it can be a mixed blessing... The neighbor's city is right next door for an immediate attack... But I haven't exactly positioned myself in an optimal position for a rush. No barracks, no units, minimal offensive techs.

[Velociryx]

Against the AI tho, you don't have to be optimal. So you missed the Oracle....no biggie. When that happens to me (and it has), here are my priorities:

* Scan for copper. If there's some close by, second city is on it, chop 4-6 axes (no barracks) and kill something. Meanwhile, research alphabet and enable tech trading.

* If no copper, rather than alpha, I'd be inclined to go to Husbandary (if I don't already have it), and perform a similar scan for horses.

While it is true that your initial expansion may have suffered, remember that this is PRIME barb time....which means free cities for you...cities you would not be in a financial position to nab had you expanded early. By waiting, you save yourself the cost of the settler, and possibly the cost of the worker too. In that regard, the "slingshot delay" (whether it met with success or failure) is a strength, not a weakness.

-=Vel=-

EDIT: Likewise, the relative lack of units is also a strength, rather than a weakness. It means that you're not paying upkeep (or eating up free slots) on next-to-useless warriors, and can instead, develop a "cadillac force" of top-of-the-line ancient age units, right from the start.

[samspock]

I am on my third attempt and using rome for an agressive slingshot and the second one that has worked. I went for bronze first, agriculture second then started on stuff for the slingshot. I threw iron working in there early and found that my capital was right next to iron. I did found a second city and used that to build pratorians. I ended up with the slingshot completed around 1200bc and china conquered (using only three pratorians!) I went straight for alphabet and picked up the rest of the stuff I missed.

Now I am up to about 1200 ad, have conqured the spanish, built most wonders I wanted (!#@@! germans got the pyramids!) and am about to eat greece. I think a slingshot is most effective if you do some conquring at the same time. I have not yet tried it using something other than Rome though.

One thing you could also do is if you manage a great prophet soon after your scientist you may be able to use that for CS. I have tried the variants using the prophet to get COL then the oracle for CS and it works. Not sure if the prophet will give you CS though.

[PaganPaulwhisky]

This is why I shy away from the slingshot strategies. It isnt too difficult to recover below monarch, but if you fail on the higher levels it is really a crushing blow. This just happened in my current emp game. Unfortunatetly I drew Saladin (philo is the worst trait IMO) and thought I would try the slingshot and go pacifism to churn out GP. My mistake was getting bronze and the comp beat me to Oracle by about 5 turns. I had one city and 2 warriors at the time with 3 neighbors pushing my borders.

Luckily a Japaneese city culture flipped to me shortly and gold appeared in my capital or I would have been toast. I was able to chop and pop a decent army to take one more Japaneese city by force with four gold hills, but his culture is so large that I get none of them. I was able to get 5 techs for COL and research civil service and construction before AI, but I am still far behind in other areas. I just captured a barb city and am now out of expansion room I have one productive city and three size 2 cities that are growing ultra slow. I am dead last in score and probably the least advanced civ. My army sucks too. Things are not looking good.

Founding the religions here was my downfall. I switched immediately to Hinduism thinking it would spread to others pretty fast once I got the shrine, but Izzy and Capac spread Bud and Jud all over the place and converted almost everyone. Now, everyone is upset with me and wont trade. It is only a matter of time before someone runs me over.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Well, the Alternate Slingshot *plans* getting CS without the Oracle. Basically you research Code of Laws and the necessary techs that allow you to use a Great Prophet for CS. You won't get the whole tech but the last time I tried it the Prophet gave me 1018 beakers toward a 1040 tech, so it took ONE turn of research.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by PaganPaulwhisky
Founding the religions here was my downfall. I switched immediately to Hinduism thinking it would spread to others pretty fast once I got the shrine, but Izzy and Capac spread Bud and Jud all over the place and converted almost everyone. Now, everyone is upset with me and wont trade. It is only a matter of time before someone runs me over.

That sounds similar to the game I'm playing now as Capac. I sort of forgot about using the Great Prophet from building Stonehenge for CS, using it instead to build my Hindu shrine, but Isabella with her Buddhism was so pervasive, that I decided to switch back to no state religion to reap the diplomacy benefits.

It's late medieval times now, I've have captured two or three more shrines, by eliminating Hatshesut and part of Roosevelt's old empire(divided up between Ghengis, me and Tokugawa). I'm in first place, I'm Buddhist and Isabella loves me. Life is good. But now it's time for Isabella to go, as I capture the Buddhist holy city of Madrid.

[couerdelion]

It depends

I've failed it more times than succeeded and it's not a disaster. The tech advance is permanent so you can quickly catch up with the lower techs.

If you have bronzeworking but no bronze, you may find archery the safer route but I suspect Iron Working is likely to serve you better.

Otherwise, Alphabet will be high on my list because I don't want to invest my time working out those low-grade techs. Often I can find myself with Writing at this stage and so avoid having to give away something more valuable.

What's more, the Great Prophet is likely to be a good route for CS.

The downside to all this is that Philosophy might be a little more difficult to obtain. It's still doable and the Pacifism will drive out GPs to keep your existing tech lead.

[Crossfire]

I think that if you haven't founded a second city before you start building The Oracle, then you are probably not doing the same slingshot as most of us. I almost always have a third city built by the time I get The Oracle. I have BW and I have chopped some to get my 2 settlers and to time the completion of The Oracle to when CoL is done. Even if I lose The Oracle at the last moment I feel I am fine. The money will be used to keep my research rate high while I quickly expand more.