Poprush info

[Hermann the Lombard]

I just want to confirm my understanding:

Burning one pop yields 30 shields and +1 unhappy for 15 turns.

Burning a pair yields 60 shields and +1 unhappy for 30 turns.

Doing a second poprush while already unhappy from the previous one adds a second +1 unhappy of the same duration overlapping the first and continuing after the first ends.

[UnOrthOdOx]

That would be my understanding as well, yes.
Though # of unhappy turns is most likely related to game speed, and I don't have the exact figures off top of my head.

[couerdelion]

Other factors

Not just game speed but it also seems to affect what is being built.

At Epic speed, a pop-rush will generate 45 hammers for a building and 60 for a unit. The former would at least be consistent with the idea that the game is running at 66% of the speed of normal speed. However the penalty seems to apply for the same time (15 turns rather than 22 turns) so the pop-rush on epic can be a very effective tool. Having said that I seem to recall normal speed games giving just 10 turns of unhappiness.

I've also noticed that pop-rushing units when at war have yielded a paltry 30 hammers.

One thing I didn't realise was the duration of unhappiness if two citizens are used to rush-build. I thought the duration was still the same 15 turns.

In addition, if the population is unhappy for another x turns from a previous pop-rush then another pop-rush will leave unhappiness of +1 for 15+x turns. With the previous pop-rush this gives +2 unhappy for x turns and +1 unhappy for the subsequent 15 turns.

[mgdpublic]

Does pop rushing exterminate a happy, unhappy, or random
person?

[DaveV]

Pop-rushed shields also appear to be multiplied by trait bonuses; i.e. 60 shields toward a courthouse when you're ORG. Presumably they'd also be doubled if you were IND and rushing a wonder, and tripled if you also had, for example, stone for Stonehenge.

[xxFlukexx]

Originally posted by mgdpublic
Does pop rushing exterminate a happy, unhappy, or random
person?

Unhappy's first. But what can happen is that you are size 4 with 1 unhappy and if you pop rush one citizen, now you are at size 3 with 1 unhappy. In 10 turns (on normal speed) you will be at size 3 with no unhappy's.

[Nacht]

Originally posted by xxFlukexx
Unhappy's first.

There are no unhappy citizens perse. A city has happy points (untouched by poprushing) and unhappy points (decreased by poprushing because less 'it's too crowded' increased because of poprush penalty). Unhappy citizens are the result of there being more unhappy points in a city than happy points.

Originally posted by xxFlukexx
But what can happen is that you are size 4 with 1 unhappy and if you pop rush one citizen, now you are at size 3 with 1 unhappy.

What happened is that one unhappy citizen disappeared because your town got smaller (one less 'it's too crowded') and one appeared because of the poprush.

Originally posted by xxFlukexx
In 10 turns (on normal speed) you will be at size 3 with no unhappy's.

That's because the poprush penalty ended.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Re: Other factors

Originally posted by couerdelion
Not just game speed but it also seems to affect what is being built.

At Epic speed, a pop-rush will generate 45 hammers for a building and 60 for a unit. The former would at least be consistent with the idea that the game is running at 66% of the speed of normal speed. However the penalty seems to apply for the same time (15 turns rather than 22 turns) so the pop-rush on epic can be a very effective tool. Having said that I seem to recall normal speed games giving just 10 turns of unhappiness.

I've also noticed that pop-rushing units when at war have yielded a paltry 30 hammers.

Ugh. Sounds like we need more research if the number of hammers and number of turns varies by speed (Marathon through X-through-a-goose speed), by what is being built, and by trait. So is anyone reading this thread who is Industrious and Scientific?

One thing I didn't realise was the duration of unhappiness if two citizens are used to rush-build. I thought the duration was still the same 15 turns.

In addition, if the population is unhappy for another x turns from a previous pop-rush then another pop-rush will leave unhappiness of +1 for 15+x turns. With the previous pop-rush this gives +2 unhappy for x turns and +1 unhappy for the subsequent 15 turns.

Really? I would have assumed that if you did one poprush yielding 15 turns of +1, waited 5 turns and did another you would then have 10 turns of +2 and 5 turns of +1.

[kittenOFchaos]

Slavery is in my opinion only there to use as Spiritual civs...you got a crisis with an incoming enemy, burn population for units. Why Spiritual? Easy to change to slavery as the need arises, for everyone else just chop a forest or take whats coming to you.

Firaxis weren't kind to slavery IMHO.

[KerThud]

Re: Poprush info

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
...

Burning one pop yields 30 shields and +1 unhappy for 15 turns.

Burning a pair yields 60 shields and +1 unhappy for 30 turns.

...

The duration of the unhappiness does _not_ depend on the number of citizens 'sacrificed.' So, you always want to burn two or more at a time if you can.

And it does depend on game speed. I'm playing quick these days, and the unhappiness duration is 6 turns.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Re: Re: Poprush info

Originally posted by KerThud
The duration of the unhappiness does _not_ depend on the number of citizens 'sacrificed.' So, you always want to burn two or more at a time if you can.

So *neither* duration nor magnitude depends on whether you sacrifice one or two? That's odd.

Oh, kOc, you'll have to tell that to those addicted to "pop & chop." Just look at it this way, it's more ecologically sound to enslave than to deforest.

[Aginor]

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Slavery is in my opinion only there to use as Spiritual civs...you got a crisis with an incoming enemy, burn population for units. Why Spiritual? Easy to change to slavery as the need arises, for everyone else just chop a forest or take whats coming to you.

Firaxis weren't kind to slavery IMHO.

I pretty much live on slavery when in warmonger mode...just insanely useful for getting captured cities to be productive, start cranking out some culture, or what have you. Obviously in the early game it sees a somewhat more focused use...

But basically, anyplace where I can feed citizens to buildings, not start a riot, and replace that citizen quickly...I kill off citizens. It's just too efficient a mechanism for getting a new city off the ground, as food gets devalued rapidly as a resource as your city grows.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Slavery is in my opinion only there to use as Spiritual civs...you got a crisis with an incoming enemy, burn population for units. Why Spiritual? Easy to change to slavery as the need arises, for everyone else just chop a forest or take whats coming to you.

Firaxis weren't kind to slavery IMHO.

(shrug) I have the opposite idea. I always go slavery as early as possible, and then usually keep it until emancipation. Even if you don't pop-rush very often, you save a lot on upkeep, because slavery has no upkeep cost. While I will occasioanlly use one of the other civics in that catagory them for a short time when Spiritual, (like going Serfdom for 10 turns when I first get lumbermills or railroads, for example), generally speaking, the benifits for the other just don't seem to be worth the upkeep cost.

Besides, I think you're underrating pop rush as an economic tool. If you have a fishing village, it's hard to get the economic buildings you need to make the village pay off without either pop-rush or cash-rushing. Extra people do you no good if they're unhappy; use a pop rush one to get a temple this turn instead of 20 turns from now, and 15 turns from now (when the -1 runs out) you're undoubtably in a better position then you were before you pop rushed. If anything, I suspect that I should be pop-rushing more then I do now.

[couerdelion]

Pop rush is excellent value

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Slavery is in my opinion only there to use as Spiritual civs...you got a crisis with an incoming enemy, burn population for units. Why Spiritual? Easy to change to slavery as the need arises, for everyone else just chop a forest or take whats coming to you.

Firaxis weren't kind to slavery IMHO.

All civics are more useful with Spiritual

But the real value of slavery is not really in your type of crisis mode but in trading food for production at a decent rate. The fishing village example is excellent since it highlights the problems for a city will ample food but little production.

With a granary and fish you'll be increasing a population point every 4-6 turns at standard speed. With production at a premium, a triple citizen pop-rush will yield you a library (90 hammers) so the library gets built in around 15 turns rather than 90!!!

So is anyone reading this thread who is Industrious and Scientific?

I'm not industrious enough and have the wrong game situation at the moment to try out slavery as a serious option - not that Caste System is much use at the moment although it will be when I capture a few cities.

But you never know. A few food rich cities with citizens pining for a failed civilisation might justify running a few turns on Caste and then turn to slavery to get the cities working properly.

[kittenOFchaos]

Your fishing village "problem" calls for a caste system solution.