Thoughts on George Dubya?

[more_cowbell]

I'm curious what everyone thinks about George Washington for use on Monarch level? His economic trait helps research a lot by making the costal cites very viable with that extra 50% boost to gold. The organized trait seems invaluable when you are trying to rapidly expand early on (so that you can still keep your research rate near 60-70% while expanding.

I just won my first space race with G.W. (1976ish, I think) and I was ahead in score the whole time. With other leaders, I never bothered to finish a game because I was so far behind economically.

Anyone else with similar results? (Or better results going a different route?)

My other question pertains to how many cities you usually expand to right away. I find that you can only build about 7 max right away before the upkeep cost gets to be to overwhelming. I then expand later in the game after I get my economy going. Any thoughts/comments on that issue would also be appreciated.

This is a very valuable forum and I really appreciate the posts here!

[unamablebuiler]

As I usualy play washington but at a lower level (noble)than you I expand to about the same size before consolodating my econ

my research drops to around 50% and stays there

As for results it would probably be similar to the what am i doing wrong thread i started.

while I am at a lower level than monarch it might illustrate something like what not to do, it might end up being a UN or domination victory though


before i forget welcome from annother newbie

[Imran Siddiqui]

Nice thread name, btw .

[Ray Radlein]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Nice thread name, btw .

I sure thought that it was going in a different direction before I read the message.


(BTW, nice icon/avatar there)

[joncnunn]

I was positive that someone had placed this thread in the wrong forum by it's tile.

Friends of George Washington called him General Washington.

Times are much more informal now.

[lordrune]

It was a damn good joke, though. I cringed at first when I saw the title, because I've seen what threads like this can turn into on less topically focused communities

[Aginor]

The problems with Washington as I see them:

1) Horrid starting techs. Compare to the Chinese, or the Mysticism players. Fishing is a potluck starting tech, and usually is not good immediately. Hunting is arguably in and of itself the least useful of the starting techs. There are few places for camps, the tile rarely improves dramatically, and all it leads to is Archery.

2) The UU shows up way too late to make a difference in conquering against the AI. If you have a long period of time where you can war with Marines, you have a large enough tech lead that you're going to outrace their spaceship anyway.

The American traits are solid enough, and I think Washington is the better of the two. However, I also feel that basically starting two techs behind most of the major beeline methods is a VERY significant disadvantage. Coupled with a lack of an UU, you have a civ that has a lot of disadvantages to overcome in the early game.

Or, to put it another way - I seriously doubt that Washington will be selected in the democracy game that is about to start, which is also suggestive of the view of the civ amongst many members of this forum.

[Kriegsspieler]

For what it's worth, I agree completely about hunting being a starting tech that's a virtual Kiss of Death. What is most annoying about it is that in combination with fishing (as in the case of Gen. Washington) you have to do a huge amount of precious research just to give your workers something worthwhile to do.

I always play with randomized leaders to start, and have never had a successful game with GW. But given the right circumstances -- such as a coastal city and something fishable in the starting radius AND early discovery of a useful tech in a hut -- then I think GW's character traits could make for a good game. "Organized" has become arguably my favorite trait.

[DaveV]

Washington starts with fishing and agriculture: one step away from Animal Husbandry, which is most often my first tech goal (the map generator seems inclined to put me near farm animals at the start). Alexander is the one with fishing and hunting.

[xxFlukexx]

What's wrong with hunting? Starting with a scout can easily net you a few extra huts and more huts are always great.

UU stinks but Washington's traits are very good for a peaceful game, I've won many games with Washington, peaceful and non-peaceful.

[Aginor]

Ah, Dave is correct (see what I get for posting without firing up the game?)

Animal Husbandry is generally a lower priority for me as a consequence of the fact that it is a detour from key beelines, which I typically find I haven't got time for.

Agreed that a starting Scout is quality, but with that said I'm a Worker-first or Warrior-Worker (dependent on start) guy, so typically improvement techs are a higher priority. YMMV, but I rarely get anything worth writing home about from huts in Civ 4. Of course, the games where I do get a tech tend to be the games where I get 2-3 techs.

[Kriegsspieler]

I still have never won with GW!

And I would still maintain that hunting is not a valuable tech to start with. If I start the game on the northern or southern edges of the map, which is where the majority of the hunting-related resource hexes are, then it's often also filled with tundra and other unappetizing geographical features. And then add to that all the research you have to do to get something useful.

So here's a question: give me a candidate for a less useful starting tech than hunting. Even fishing gets your naval evolution going -- unless your position is landlocked, that is!

[Solomwi]

They have the same utility problems as all late UU's (though they're a HUGE improvement over the F-15 from Civ3), but the Navy SEAL is one of the most fun UU's to play with. March means that they can keep coming at an enemy turn after turn, and amphibious means that you don't have to leave them exposed to enemy counterattack. Simply stop short of taking the city and pull your transports and escorts outside enemy waters, to let the SEALs heal that extra bit from neutral territory. Playing on any map that lends itself to a significant naval aspect, you can use these guys to harass an enemy anywhere in the world, and because they're always healing, they get that many more battles and that much more XP under their belts.

Montezuma's over on his continent rattling his saber? Park several bombers in a neutral city (one he doesn't have open borders with!) and ship over a couple of escorted SEAL flotillas and you've got a ready made war machine that can be used to devastating effect.

The first strikes are nice, but it's the march promo that makes this unit such fun.

[more_cowbell]

First off, thanks for the replies and I certainly meant no disrespect to arguably one of the greatest national leaders in history in picking the title of my thread (it just sounded kinda "catchy" )

The fact that many are erronously attributing the hunting tech to G.W. at the start makes me think that folks have very little experience in actually using him in a monarch level single player game.

Also, something else that struck me was that someone mentioned that they never won with G.W.

That must mean that you are not taking advantage of all of his wonderful attributes. The only downside with G.W. is that he misses mining as a starting tech and therefore must wait longer to chop-rush settlers.

What you do, however, to make up for this, is be sure and make several workers and get your cottages built ASAP on river tiles (preferably flood plains.) Also, take advantage of fishing as a starting tech and get sailing researched right away as well. This makes costal cities VERY viable (3 gold each for coastal tiles) AND allows you to connect your cities for trade without taking the time to build roads (if you just put a little thought into city placement.)

The organized trait allows you to expand in a much more classic civ-like fashion (ie: early and often) and still keep your research near 60-70% (crucial for keeping up with the AI that gets bonuses on monarch level.) An under-rated aspect of an organized civ is a 50% faster lighthouse construction. Couple that with the 50% increase in gold for coastal squares and the 3 or so extra costal cities you can squeeze out at the beginning of the game allow you to grow faster then the AI, while researching techs at a faster rate.

Granted, the two last games that I played on monarch level on continent map, I found myself alone on my continent. G.W. excells on such a map for the reasons I mentioned above. I have yet to share a continent with one or more AI with my G.W. strat. The lack of a good early UU might show up more with that sort of a scenario (but once again, the ability to squeeze out those extra 3 costal cities would probably be even more important on a map where space is at a premium.) You would also get the benifit higher return on your trade routes, so as long as you could avoid a war, I suspect it would be a wash (no pun intended.)

[joncnunn]

I agree that Fishing is map dependent, but Hunting is also very useful dispite it's low cost (and therefore less value) because it's the tech that allows you to build Scouts, which are best in extreme early game where there are still goody huts to be had.

There's also some degree in which having both Fishing & Hunting balance out map dependencies. [If hunting is completely useless, then Fishing will allow faster access to Galleys to get off your island, while if there are no fish around, the need for scouts is all the greater.]

Washington's bigest strength are that his two traights combine to make the fastest time a newly built city pays for itself.

Also, Hunting is an optional path to AD allowing to be reserached in 4000 BC if you hit the jackpot in Cows.

And Fishing is an optional path to Pottery, [you'll also need the Wheel.]

Originally posted by Aginor
The problems with Washington as I see them:

1) Horrid starting techs. Compare to the Chinese, or the Mysticism players. Fishing is a potluck starting tech, and usually is not good immediately. Hunting is arguably in and of itself the least useful of the starting techs. There are few places for camps, the tile rarely improves dramatically, and all it leads to is Archery.

2) The UU shows up way too late to make a difference in conquering against the AI. If you have a long period of time where you can war with Marines, you have a large enough tech lead that you're going to outrace their spaceship anyway.

The American traits are solid enough, and I think Washington is the better of the two. However, I also feel that basically starting two techs behind most of the major beeline methods is a VERY significant disadvantage. Coupled with a lack of an UU, you have a civ that has a lot of disadvantages to overcome in the early game.

Or, to put it another way - I seriously doubt that Washington will be selected in the democracy game that is about to start, which is also suggestive of the view of the civ amongst many members of this forum.