Pointers on combat Vs the AI

[Hauptman]

Got another hour and a half to kill, so figured I'd post some basic ideas on combat against the AI and its little quirks. Hopefully somone finds it helpful. and hopefully Its not a complete jumbled mess, as I'm typing on the fly...


Pre- construction;
Prior to Construction and Catapults, city taking can be very unit expensive. And a good unit stack with mixed units a scary sight. Axemen however should be the mainstay unit, as there is no counter unit. Only an equal unit (or with horse archers, slightly stronger). Anytime you are invaded, or invading the defender has the advantage. So simply positioning yourself on favorable terrain and tempting the ai to attack you is the safest bet.

How do you tempt the ai? Well 3 basic ways to assure the ai will attack your units are;

Defend your city. That is after all their target, so stay in your city and let them attack you. But that doesnt work on the offensive obviosly.

Within enemy lands, you can lure out the enemy out of their strongholds by sitting ON one of there resources. A huge stack will not work, but 2 units on his copper resource will give him insentive to come out and fight you. Once the resource is pillaged however he wont fight for it. So keep it alive and set units on the tile a couple at a time til his extras are dead.

And lastly, Moving your units adjacent to one of his cities. Again large stacks seem to keep him turtled, but 3 or 4 sitting against his city force his attack if he has "extra" units to attack with.

I have ran horse archers through strong ai lands unmolested simply by avoiding his resources (until i move onto then pillage same turn) and sitting next to his cities, once the core "extra" units where taken away.

these "extra" units are those that wander around his lands on "patrol" or sit within his border cities waiting for something to do. A lot of times the computer designates these at creation (the units that run off even though you have him under seige) simply as if he hit either "fortify" or "explore".


After construction, ancient era;

Once catapults become available, these become your most important units. catapults are a force multiplier. That is they make your "main" force stronger, by making the enemy weaker. In the ancient era catapults are even strong enough to take other units on 1 on 1. And now, moving all your units into enemy teritory as a stack is suicide without first killing the "extras".

So now on a war of agression, It becomes a very GOOD idea to start the war with a declaration and not a unit (unless you can hit a resource first turn to pillage it, or steal a worker, etc). Instead declare war, then let him come to you. Once he is in YOUR lands use your own catapults to soften him up, then your main force to kill his units off. After that first (usually big) battle, you can often walk within his lands unmolested, as he sent in his "extras" and all that remain are city garrison units. the AI will still garrison a catapult or two of his own, but thats a mear nuisance, not a threat.

On the defence, again 2 or 3 catapults at the border can mean the world of difference between loosing a city or beeing able to hold him off. On an agressive border it is very advisable to have 2 or 3 defenders in each city PLUS a mobile force able to reach any point of the border before a 1 move stack can reach a city. Unless you are blessed with a 1 city bottleneck, you never know where an attack may come. so plan ahead.

Mass your units, Pick off his pillaging straglers if you can safely, but dont risk loosing units to save all but the most important resources. Once your units are massed, Preferably just before he reaches the city, but still deep in your land, Hit him with all the cats you have available, THEN attack with spears, axes, horses. you should win all fights (not including the cats) once he is softened up, and gain plenty of experience. Often after the first turn, his hurt units try and heal as his own cats bombard, thus allowing you to continue your killing. Of course this means you need to build more catapults, and all the new ones 'should' get city attack promos. because now, the enemy is weak. it will be time for the attack soon.



to be continued...

[Hauptman]

Mideval era.

Now once the next generation units start coming online, you need many more catapults to gain the same effect, but they are comparitively cheap. 2 catapults could be needed for the same effect as 1, but they are also half the hammer cost of comparable mideval units.

Also units become more specialized. Now that you have civics and baracks to work with you can tailor your units better. Whatever you do, mix it up. Giving all your pikemen anti-horse promotions makes them great vs knights, but completely worthless on the offence if he stacks that knight with a crossbow or maceman. So now, a maceman with anti-horse promotions would suit you alot better... or a pikeman with cover etc... Again hitting his units with catapults FIRST then attacking with a good mix of units will lead to low losses on your end and a freshly promoted mass counter attack stack.

Protect the city attack units, and save them for their job. Unless you are in dire need (a city about to fall otherwise) try not to attack with city attack promotioned units unless the odds are greatly in your favor, It could just be my luck but they die almost everytime they fight in the open....



The Gunpowder age;

Everyone gives the muskateer a bad rap. But dont underestimate the suprise a powerful mideval force must have at the first sight of guns. Macemen loose their abilities, Crossbows flee in terror, and Knights wince while facing them off. They are only a stopgap but the first muskets on the field will turn the tide of war.

Grenadiers however are the true power unit. they come quickly after gunpowder and are as strong, or stronger than any mideval unit AGAINST its target unit. If by chance you find yourself in a gunpowder monopoly, this would be the time to attack, if the enemy also has grenadiers, perhaps you should wait for...

The Cannon. The cannon shares the strength the catapult had in its own hayday. equal strength to the core military units PLUS collateral damage. A stack of cannons alone can take cities without any help from other units. And with liberal use of city attack, those cannon could suffer ZERO losses. And they are still cheap. it isnt until the appearance of cavalry that they begin to feel the pinch, but Often I replace cannons with artillery before I begin making cavalry.


In all the era's the AI behaves basicly the same way. Keeping units as "garrison" or "attack extras" and moving in force in rather predictable ways. Make sure you attack his "extra" before you move into his own lands and you should have little difficulty destroying armies many times your own in strength.

[Blake]

A note I have is the value of city raiders in destroying units - especially when dogpiling into a war.

A good example was an earlier game when Alexander (my neighbour) rolled on up to a German colony intruding on our lands. Alexanders army was atleast a dozen strong. I immediately mobilised my city attackers and some defenders and sent them towards the city, Alexander actually declared war and took the city before I got there, but the next turn my units arrived (protected by a jungle tile). Alexander kamikazied a couple of units against my stack, the rest huddled in the city and got absolutely mauled by my city raider catapults.
The key is that a freshly captured city has 0 defense, so just roll up and fire away with city raiders and enjoy the huge bonuses. You don't always want to take the city right away, might want to leave it at one defender and see if he shuffles more units into it.

Ofcourse it's not something you do often, just one of them oppurtunistic things to watch for.

Also the correct response if YOU end up on the recieving end (capture a city, huge stack roll up) is to RUN AWAY; or "Strategic Retreat", 0 defense cities are terrible places to defend in so if it's freshly captured just let it go. You can also sometimes turn around and use your city raiders.

[Hauptman]

If the enemy also has grenadiers, perhaps you should wait for...

Astronomy. Once frigates and galeons enter the game, you have a new tool that completely changes warfare. The AI is, unfortunatly, completely unaware of amphibious invasion's potential. It will neither attempt, not defend against it. An oversight in programing to be sure, but a very powerful weapon. This is where agressive civs really shine. Baracks + civic = combat2 and Amphibious attack units. Otherwise use city attack, it's only a 25% difference.

The AI could have 20 units 1 turn from a coastal city, and when you move your ships in and declare war he will NOT move to shore up its defenses, even when you spend a couple turns blasting his defenses flat. Even though its painfully obviose what is about to happen, the AI remains blissfully unaware. Its so good, you can consider it an exploit.

4 frigates and 4 galeons can take most cities with no chance of failure. However, obviosly they need to be coastal.

The AIs cats and cannon are only useful if they have a stack to attack. 2 max collateral cats or cannons, 2 city attack cats or cannons then your amphib forces to kill the garrisons. and you can conquer an enemy without opening yourself up to counter attack because you never leave the boats.

It makes my mouth water just thinking about it. Later you can augment this with aircraft and suffer no losses at all.

[Hauptman]

Also the correct response if YOU end up on the recieving end (capture a city, huge stack roll up) is to RUN AWAY; or "Strategic Retreat", 0 defense cities are terrible places to defend in so if it's freshly captured just let it go. You can also sometimes turn around and use your city raiders.

Well, if it gets recaptured by the orriginal owner, the cultural defense gets completely restored...

[Blake]

Only if they never got bombarded down in the first place, and it's not an issue when fighting over a 3rd parties city .

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by Hauptman

The AI is, unfortunatly, completely unaware of amphibious invasion's potential. It will neither attempt, not defend against it. An oversight in programing to be sure, but a very powerful weapon.

Too right! And good to bear in mind for your coastal city defences. The AI will aim for hills/resources as a landing point, so you can leave the city barely garrisoned (as long as your coastal defences are paved).

The AI will try to land on your weakest units (even if it's stupid), so you can use this to steer it within range of a second garrison/navy, for example.

[Urban Ranger]

Re: Pointers on combat Vs the AI

Originally posted by Hauptman
And lastly, Moving your units adjacent to one of his cities. Again large stacks seem to keep him turtled, but 3 or 4 sitting against his city force his attack if he has "extra" units to attack with.

This works very well against barbarians. Fortify a couple of archers on a nice tile, preferably wooded hills, and he will attack you. Once in a while a barbarian unit will be sent in a random direction, but that only happen rarely.

[Arrian]

Here's a question:

Say you're going after a large AI city in the medieval era (they have longbows, you have macemen, cats, etc). Cultural defense is something like 50%.

How many catapults would you bring, and which promo would you use (assume you get 1 promo)?

My typical troop mix in such a situation would be, roughly:

4 cats (unpromoted or city raider I)
4 maces (1 with combat 1, 3 unpromoted until we're ready to attack)
1-2 pikes (combat 1, aiming for combat II and formation eventually)
1 crossbow (combat 1 or drill)
...
1-2 knights, if available

I usually have another strike force of similar composition, maybe a tad weaker, and I will use it on another city (a smaller/weaker border city, usually).

Yet I always seem to run low on cats once I've taken the first layer of enemy cities. Perhaps I need to bring a few more?

I'm playing on Prince, so don't worry about overall numbers - I'm thinking more about the ratio of cats to other units. I'm sure those numbers wouldn't be nearly enough on a higher level.

-Arrian

[Blake]

I tend to try to have 8-12 cats, that's enough to bombard defenses down in one turn AND sacrifice some cats in the same turn, if I choose to. As the war progresses enough cats remain to still bombard defenses down in a turn or two, and with so many cats I can afford to leave some un-promoted and only commit to collatoral or city raider (or accuracy) when it's time to use them.

They can be stockpiled in advance, then add a few bleeding-edge escorts (the "If in doubt, build catapults" rule).

Shock value: smash the defenses in one turn and they have no time for fresh defenders to fortify and stuff.

My composition by cats tends to be anywhere between 50% and 70% (3 longbows, 7 cats type thing). I don't think I've ever once thought "Gee, I have too many catapults", if I have "too many" I just use some as softeners.

[swat-spas2]

There are three possible kinds of wars here

1)those that you/AI declare because they are easily won; the tech-behind AI or a heavily outnumbered one
2) those that you/AI declares because there are diplomacy issues or unreasonable demands. Military issues are severe here because the two sides can be evenly matched in tech/forces. Much ebb-flow is expected
3) Those that you/ai declares because victory is at an issue. These are difficult-uphill climbs for whoever attacks

In all cases there are particular strategic plans to put in order

I would never recommend letting them come to you unless you did not declare war. If they declare on you its because you left something weak and vulnerable that they need or could get to and will perhaps take unless you can react quickly. Its usually a waste of time to be re-developing pillaged terrain (esp cottages or key resources). What you can do for this scenario is to put up useless terrain improvements on out-of-city tiles, such as farms and cottages on flatlands and forts on the hills for your sentries to sit in. Invading armies/barbs will often pillage on the way in since your border towns are likely stronger in defense and they will not be able to immediately attack anyway. Give them something "useful" to do while you mount a counter-offensive or whittle them down. Barb units can be duped into attacking a unit on a good D tile instead of walking into an empty city (this is an exploit to my mind, as it is the city that would "annoy" a barb, not the unit).

The best scenario is if you declared war. Under proper circumstances, you are committing the army with the conditions to win with out really having to "fight" at all. In essence, you would only be fighting battles that are always in your favor on odds. Your units would be more powerful or theirs very weakened by bombardments. (sun tzu covers this on the section on fire)

Fighting an evenly matched war should never happen unless you are overly aggressive and piss everyone off constantly or someone is about to win. If you get into one, you need lots more siege weapons (50% ratio is best in this scenario) and take to the offensive ASAP. Sitting around letting the enemy increase his strength is always bad even if you are outnumbered to begin with. Go on the offensive whenever you can. Use the terrain as you move into enemy lands and don't just attack for the hell of it. Find and hit something important (like cities near iron or horses). Best use of terrain is to play like an RTS and find a chokepoint and get/capture a city near there immediately.

Note: i'm playing my current game on immortal as rome. Certain civs lend themselves to offense better than others. I used almost exclusively prats until cats became available. Then it was a 60-40 ratio with only new cats being built.

[Yosho]

Grenadiers however are the true power unit. they come quickly after gunpowder and are as strong, or stronger than any mideval unit AGAINST its target unit. If by chance you find yourself in a gunpowder monopoly, this would be the time to attack, if the enemy also has grenadiers, perhaps you should wait for...

Grenadiers are a very efficent counter to rifles, but they're often a very narrow counter, being only good against rifles but nothing else, while rifles have a much wider scope. That is, grenadiers beat rifles, cavelry beats granaders, and rifles beat everything EXCEPT granaders. With their higher strength, rifles are better against cannons, random outdated but experenced units you run in to, and even random higher level units. Have you ever had to try to hold a city with a pile of fortified rifles against infantry? Not fun, but not completly impossible, if you've got numbers on your side...

[OzzyKP]

Giving catapults the city raider promotion is interesting. Typically I figure that I'm throwing the unit away on a battle with hopeless odds for the sole purpose of using the collateral damage against the stack of city defenders. So since collateral damage is what I'm after I typically take that promotion.

Though I've never compared the two. What are the advantages of city raider vs. collateral damage?

[fluffyflyingpig]

Ah, but granadiers come MUCH sooner than rifles, making them much more useful. Chemistry (and steel) are easy to beeline for if you are in a warmongering mood. By the time I get rifles, I'm just one step away from artillery, which are utterly overpowered when they first hit the stage (and ought to be Hauptman's next topic).

On a tangentially related note, I've been wondering, which would be better to beeline for, artillery or assembly line (infantry). Specifically, I've been going for OCC conquest wins on standard standard maps, normal speed, playing as Napoleon. On levels below monarch, I've won before either unit made an impact on the battle field. In my current game on Emperor, which I'm slowly slogging through, I decided to go for artillery and am wondering if I made the right choice. Assembly line is faster to tech to by some 20-30 turns or so (in no small part thanks to some extortion of Mansa Musa). Rifles are worthless since everyone already has granadiers en mass.

I crux of the problem is that without horses, in the long period between the onset of gunpowder, (musketeers, cannon, granadiers), and the arrival of artillery/infantry the AI manages tech equality before I can get better units. This makes life much more difficult, as wars of attrition are not affordable for a OCC!!!

Of course, the fact that the most powerful civ at any point on Emperor game is the OCC and that OCC are winnable via conquest on Monarch and lower (and probably Emperor) says something about the combat AI.

[couerdelion]

City raider catapults?

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Giving catapults the city raider promotion is interesting. Typically I figure that I'm throwing the unit away on a battle with hopeless odds for the sole purpose of using the collateral damage against the stack of city defenders. So since collateral damage is what I'm after I typically take that promotion.

Though I've never compared the two. What are the advantages of city raider vs. collateral damage?

I don't think city raider is ever an option for catapults.