CS Slingshot and then What? (Death!)

[Rancidlunchmeat]

What do people normally "try" for after completing the CS slingshot?

I've been able to complete it on a couple of occassions now thank's to Vel's guide, including the bit about the academy (which really helps!). However, after completion I'm usually unsure as to where to go next.

If I need improvement techs, such as hunting or animal husbantry, I'll go grab them really quickly. If I don't, or managed to get them along the way, then I usually try for machinery in order to get macemen.

Anyway, the past couple of games, the way it works is that by the time I complete the CS slingshot, I have only two cities. The second was founded nearly before or nearly after bronze working. Always before Iron Working was discovered (if I had time and opportunity to grab that tech).

The end result is no military techs (archery), and a second city that was founded without regard (or knowledge of) copper or iron resources.

I end up with warriors still defending my cities and their resources and by the time the CS slingshot is complete, I'm overrun by axe wielding barbarian goons.

My latest attempt had an AGR leader, plus I managed to build barracks, so my warriors were all exp'd up and I had four of them per city. (Three on resources, one inside).

As soon as the Barbarians were 'at the gate', it was all over.

Anybody else run into this problem with the CS slingshot?

I was really kicking some major butt, right up until the point I got removed from the game!

[Hauptman]

I do exactly what you mentioned...

After the CS slingshot, its only a matter of 2 or 3 techs til machinery. I often trade CoL for backfil techs, since I already have the religion and you get to keep courthouses in conquered cities.

I often stay at 2 cities as well, because once machinery comes I now have an unstoppable Mideval army against their now obsolete ancient ones. thus my first 2 cities can support the smaller but more tech advanced military conquest of my neighbors.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Hm... I usually don't trade CoL because I don't have alphabet. So you get alphabet first, then trade CoL to backfill while researching machinery?

Makes sense.. have you ever come into a situation where you don't have iron or copper in the cultural boundaries of your two cities?

The strategy would certainly be successful for me if I were able to build some Axemen (even just 1 or 2) to augment my force of warriors until I could get macemen up and running.

But the last two or three times I tried it.. rats! And by the time you get iron working, there's simply not enough time to build a settler, plop a city, and churn out the 1 or 2 axemen you need for defense. The Barbs are all over me well before that.

Sure.. it's just the unlucky roll of the dice as to the lack of copper or iron, I've just never seen anybody mention it in any of Vel's or the other threads on the CS Slingshot.

Seems to me it's almost as risky as his "settler first" strat.

[Hauptman]

I tend to crowd my games, so barbarians are never a real threat. 15+ civs on a large map make barbarians go away quickly.

If you lack iron then you need construction and feudalism before machinery. But its rare i dont have a metal in my cities. My last 2 city game only had copper, so i axed my way through russia.

I usually take writing prior to CoL, so then alphabet gets worked in before machinery etc, for the backfil.

If I'm playing a non crowded barbarian game i take archery before i try any other silly stuff. and btw, i rarely try for the oracle slingshot but I ALWAYS research CoL early. I'm a huge fan of caste system. with caste system running i can research CS fast enough to still be viable early game.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Hm... yeah, I run huge maps with 11 AI (or is it 10? Whatever the default is).

So there's lots of space and lots of Barbs.

I take writing too, in order to get the lib to focus the specialists to get the academy... just tried that recently when I read Vel's Devel Workshop on it. But I usually don't focus on alphabet because I'm going for iron working during the slingshot and going for machinery afterwards.

I'll have to take a try at alphabet and then backfilling those techs. Although.. that still won't help if I don't have any metal resources!

[bobshiznit]

After I do a CS Slingshot i make sure to get archery next. That way when the barbs come I can pop rush some archers if needed (you have slavery by now I hope). If you are lucky enough to have copper in your boarders two axemen can guard against anything the barbs can throw at you. I play continents everything standard on monarch. Never had much barb trouble that an archer or two couldn't fix.

[Huskerfan]

Since BW is one of the first techs I go for (depending on surroundings), I already know where the copper is...hopefully not too far away. I hold a Settler just for that location. So I am almost always guaranteed to have a metal before moving on to trying the CS Slingshot.

[Velociryx]

Observe the CS Slingshot thread again. You'll note that I too had barbarian troubles. Archers, not Axemen, but the pre-slingshot completion method of dealing with them is the same as it would be for archers....build enough warriors for defense before you go into the "blackout" period, and if needs be, don't be scared to chop-rusn a warrior to completion to shore up defenses (interrupting the Oracle build as necessary).

A little scary/unnerving at times, sure, but don't lose heart. Going back to the Devel I test game as a case-in-point, many of the difficulties you describe are there....no metals for solid defenders, no archery for fallback defenders, warriors only, barbarian attacks. It's there...

-=Vel=-

[johnmcd]

I do huge maps with the default contientents and never have trouble with barbs, nothing major anyway, certainly not civ threatening.

[Velociryx]

As to what to do AFTER you get yourself geared up for stellar research:

Trade techs ONLY when it is to your advantage to do so (ie., if you can trade writing to 3 civs and net more in beakers than writing cost you, by all means, do so! If you can trade any L1 and L2 techs for ANYTHING, by all means, do so! Hold onto the rest tho. Your risk PAID FOR this advantage you now posess....don't p*ss it away by trading a 1500 beaker tech for some 300 beaker tech you could research in 4 turns! Keep your state secrets and make the AI work to catch up to you, while you smash through all the cheap stuff in record time, and STILL manage to get Music first for the Great Artist, build the GL before the rest even have literature, steam ahead to Machinery (if you're anybody but Rome) and get a solid 8-strength attacker to mow down any of your near neighbors, WHILE making a play to be the first to Liberalism (and thus, further widening your impressive tech lead). Once you have it, your next challenge is in making sure you KEEP it.

-=Vel=-

[The keeper]

This is of course situation dependent.


If your capital and second city are up against an ocean, you can make fewer warriors, and fortify them outside your borders. Make sure there is no fog between your warrior your city. Eliminating the fog eliminates barbs. If they do spawn, they are spawning far away from your cities, and worst case senerio, you can switch to a warrior and plenty of time to finish it without pop-rusing.

Usually your fortified warriors will attract the attention of the barbs, and your defensive bonuses will let you win against almost everything except axemen.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by The keeper
This is of course situation dependent.


If your capital and second city are up against an ocean, you can make fewer warriors, and fortify them outside your borders. Make sure there is no fog between your warrior your city. Eliminating the fog eliminates barbs. If they do spawn, they are spawning far away from your cities, and worst case senerio, you can switch to a warrior and plenty of time to finish it without pop-rusing.

Usually your fortified warriors will attract the attention of the barbs, and your defensive bonuses will let you win against almost everything except axemen.

If it's axemen, then fortified archers work well in forests or better yet forested hills, and with a few promotions. If all you've got are warriors, you've still got a chance if they're in pairs, but you'd better hustle to archery or hook up with some metal.

I think CS slingshot becomes more like CoL shotput at the harder levels, unless you happen to be one of the civs that have special advantages such as financial, industrious, and/or start with some key techs like mysticism, fishing, mining, agriculture. For example, Romans have fishing and mining, +2 health, cheap granaries, lighthouses, start with workable coast tiles for early gold to fuel fast research and can chop in whatever you want in the early game.

But I know what it feels like to have this wonderful little civ and have it taken by barbs in the early game. You were defeated!

[wsauret]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat
Hm... I usually don't trade CoL because I don't have alphabet. So you get alphabet first, then trade CoL to backfill while researching machinery?

Makes sense.. have you ever come into a situation where you don't have iron or copper in the cultural boundaries of your two cities?

The strategy would certainly be successful for me if I were able to build some Axemen (even just 1 or 2) to augment my force of warriors until I could get macemen up and running.

But the last two or three times I tried it.. rats! And by the time you get iron working, there's simply not enough time to build a settler, plop a city, and churn out the 1 or 2 axemen you need for defense. The Barbs are all over me well before that.

Sure.. it's just the unlucky roll of the dice as to the lack of copper or iron, I've just never seen anybody mention it in any of Vel's or the other threads on the CS Slingshot.

Seems to me it's almost as risky as his "settler first" strat.

Maybe you could chop a little more in order to get a third city out? I mean it doesnt seem like it would be too hard to chop a 3rd settler to claim iron... Or you could wait to set your 2nd city down untill you have bronze working (which would seem to be the case pretty much every game) and be sure to get copper within your borders. In that case you can chop some Axemen into existence to help defend yourself.

[couerdelion]

If there are other civilisations to trade with – the more the merrier – and I have no pressing need for a particular tech, then I will go for Alphabet and trade for those smaller techs.

Other techs will then be based on specific conditions or requirements. Lacking copper, either go and find some or look for iron instead. A little unhappy but have some dyes/spices/sugar then perhaps beeline for calendar. Happiness is also generally not a problem with monarchy.

Playing after the CS slingshot is only difficult because it places us in unfamiliar territory. But you are far better off that you would be otherwise so your goal is to use that advantage.

[couerdelion]

A few other tips on handling the “imbalance” of CS.

Hopefully you have two cities in long term viable locations. Your capital has strong production and/or growth and probably has an academy. Even if you are not a financial leader, use the non-special river tiles for cottages.

Assuming 100% into science.

Base tile (cottage to town) 2 -> 3 -> 4 ->5
Add Bureaucracy bonus 3 -> 4.5 -> 6 -> 7.5
Plus Library/Academy 5.25 -> 8.875 -> 10.5 ->13.125!!

Slave-chopping in the capital ought to be strongly discouraged. Those boys are making you so much money that you have to treat them kindly.

I’m not sure if your wood-chopping gets the 50% bonus around the capital. If not, chop other trees when you are not building cottages or only chop trees where you want to build cottages.

If the capital has little to build then settlers can be made very cheaply there. Remember that a mined plains hill provided 6 production to the settler which is as much as a farmed grassland, corn by a river!! Also a good early way to keep control of the population limit until you get Monarchy.