Monarch Level???

[bbray1]

Hello everyone! I'm new to the forum but been a shameless lurker for too long. I have been motivated by my disappointing performance in Civ 4 to seek opinion. Is Civ4 really that much tougher or I am missing something big? I know that question can't really be answered without observing game play but it is my general plea.

I've been playing Civ since there was Civ. In fact, I'm looking at the original box with 5.25" floppy disks on my bookshelf. I've played every version and expansion and regularly won games of Civ 3 at Deity level, even managed to eek out a Sid win (but not without a few, Ok, a lot of - ahem - do overs...) Love those Mayans! But Civ 4 is kicking me arse at Monarch level.

I've worked out a build cycle that can often snag Stonehenge, Oracle, Pyramids and Parthenon off the bat. (Provided I can ferret out stone and/or marble early.) Even in games where I virtually build every dang Wonder that there is, some civ manages to capapult past me in the late game and beat me to a freakin space race.

I don't understand how I can be even in the tech race, have 90% of the wonders and still be 2nd or 3rd in the game and then at the final score I get rated somewhere down in the bottom five? OMG Dan Quayle? I know I lost, was second in game, but why such pathetic scoring?

It's hard to offer advice without knowing every strat employed but here are some tendencies:

India Ghandi: Love the zippy workers and civic changes without anarchy. Get Hagia and watch out. Large maps. 6-7 civs. Normal speed. All default wins.

Workers: mostly let em run on auto. I take control when needing to get to new resources quickly. I let em clear forests for the boost in production. They generally seem to do what I would so I let em rip.

Cities: I don't stifle their growth with building settlers/workers until they grow a bit, usually let em go to 2 for that first worker and then 3 or bigger for settlers. I only build one settler out of the capital and let it grow. The pace seems right as I don't go below 70-80% on tech and manage to carve out as much space as the other civs. I usually let the govs have their way except for capital and key builder cities.

Barbs - Whoa! Start with a large mostly land map like Lakes or Pangea and watch them swarm streams of endless hordes! I have lately just turned them off. The civs seem to pick up the slack later and get pissy that I am snagging all the goodies and insist that I give them stuff or die. I don't like to give stuff or die for that matter.

Wonders - I generally try to get them all. But Stonehenge, Pyramids (for the early Representation), Great Library, Notre Dame are some on the "must" have list.

Religions - I try to found at least three religions, especially the early ones, spread around the state religion and get organized religion for the production boost until switching to Pacifist for sick output of Great Peeps.

I worked out a tech tree climb to snag Metal Casting with the Oracle while managing to get 2 or 3 of the early religions to boot. Right to the last tick of finishing the Oracle and Bronze Working on the same turn; early cheap forges rock production. I build libraries early and stay in the tech race, trading often to keep up.

If on a continent I will expand until I butt up to another civ and then grow teeth until they are crushed. I like to have my own continents...Australia? It's just a littly bitty place Mr. Luthor...

I bought Civ4 right when it came out and been at it like a fiend ever since, but Monarch level is still whipping me like a dog... Are the auto controls so retched that it explains the deal? It seems to work for the AI civs. Does the game only reward for relentless war-mongering and that defensive ***-for-tat strats, only warring for growth, just doesn't pay off?

/scratches head

I wonder what it is cuz it's just getting silly at this point...I haven't won a Monarch level game yet. (I suppose I could back off difficulty but after kicking Deity on Civ3 it just feels regressive.) The AI does seem gobs smarter then previous versions, but sheesh!

Oh well. Going back in to try again. Thanks for the 12 step support. My name is Brian and I am addicted to Civ!

[Hauptman]

If your grabbin wonders, your neglecting something else... Wonders are nice, but none are really a must have game breaking strength. You can do well without them.

Its all about the balance. military vs wonder vs science vs diplomacy.

Techs require you too trade to keep up. plain and simple. in order to trade you have to be on good terms, that means not beeing too aggresive, or too weak. If your too weak they get agressive with you thus ruining diplomacy. Prince is my "fun level" monarch is my chalange level. However i can win my a landslide on emporer occ. so I should do well on emporer, but it requires a lot of focus, planning, and concesions to the rivals.

teching deep is the only way to stay ahead. Learn code of laws early, then trade that for 2 or 3 early techs from the civs you know. Continue this trend as you progress, stop and do fill in techs and you have nothing to trade, thus you fall behind.

Have friends. Ghandi, saladin, hateshepsut, rosevelt and other "stable" civs can be very helpful throught a game, but you have to be willing to give them what they want. dont hesitate to pony up that brand new tech, and dont be afraid to ask them on occasion too. You will give more than you recieve, but you always have them available for trades.

Have your goal in mind early. If you want to win space race, plan to be able to tech hard and fast, then replace with production when the build starts. Use the internet, thats why its there. On monarch + you WILL fall behind, and that wonder solves that.

Use every asset given to you by the game designers. Mansa Musa beating you in a space build? send spies. all of them. and ruin his production. Spies not enough? send bombers. have ghengis declare war. Do what it takes... everything it takes. or else you WILL loose as the AIs have much less needed production required to build a unit in less time.

[Urban Ranger]

Re: Monarch Level???

Originally posted by bbray1
I bought Civ4 right when it came out and been at it like a fiend ever since, but Monarch level is still whipping me like a dog...

Check out the Strategy section. There are a lot of threads there with sound advices of what to do on Monarch+.

[Robert]

I've already discovered that the civ1-3 strategy won't work on civ4. It's a better game and your gameplay may varry much more.

[Blake]

Monarch strategy usually comes down to violently assimilating a neighbour in an early war, often with fast catapults (it seems the most cost-effective way to attack, blast defenses down, pummels archers with pults. No losses). With the larger territory you can then compete for any victory condition you choose.

Don't build more than one early wonder, and don't found a religion. It's better to take a holy city from a neighbour, especially if they also built stonehenge and thus build a shrine for the religion.

[Zoid]

Re: Monarch Level???

Originally posted by bbray1

I've been playing Civ since there was Civ. In fact, I'm looking at the original box with 5.25" floppy disks on my bookshelf.

d00d!

In answer to your question. Yes, Civ4 is much more complex and tricky than earlier Civs. Very much so I dare say. I´ve played the game occasionally for a few months now, and I´m still struggling to keep up with the AI at Noble... Now this is apparently the most balanced setting but I´m getting my ass kicked every time. I can be number two in the early game but after a while all the civs just whizz past. I must be doing something wrong...

[Vynd]

Attempting to get all of the Wonders is probably not a good idea. Even if you could pull it off, which I doubt, it would come at the cost of pretty much everything else you need, like more cities, workers, city improvements, and an army.

At the higher difficult settings especially Civ4 is truly a strategy game. Meaning that you need a definite plan about how to achieve victory. You can't try and do everything, which is what it sounds like you're doing.

So figure out what basic strategy you want to pursue early in the game and concentrate on that. Or even pick a strategy before the game starts and base your map/civ/leader choices on it. If you decide that a cultural victory is what you want then sure, make founding religions and building wonders a priority. But if you're looking at more of a conquer the world sort of victory then getting to key military techs early is a lot more important than founding religions.

[Aro]

Re: Re: Monarch Level???

Originally posted by Vynd
You can't try and do everything, which is what it sounds like you're doing.

Yes, you can... But not at higher levels. My first games were on chieftain. The main goal was to grab all wonders and religions... Just to see the movies.

Now I’m playing at noble. I can keep in the first three places in the early game, but sooner or later the AI will pass me by.
Btw, I won a warlord game once. Once, I said.

Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg

..... and I´m still struggling to keep up with the AI at Noble... Now this is apparently the most balanced setting but I´m getting my ass kicked every time.

So do I.

[Zoid]

Re: Re: Re: Monarch Level???

We seem to be on the same level, we should play a duel map sometime

[Crossfire]

And here I thought all you old timers played at Diety or beyond all the time. Now I find out you still struggle at Noble. Oh how my spirit is crushed!

I lose every game at Monarch too. I am pretty good on Prince, but Monarch is a huge step up from Prince and takes lots more planning. Problem is, I don't know what to plan.

[Zoid]

"You don´t have to be old to be wise" sang Judas Priest on British Steel 1980. I guess the opposite is true as well...

[Aro]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Monarch Level???

Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg
We seem to be on the same level, we should play a duel map sometime

[Crossfire]

Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg
"You don´t have to be old to be wise" sang Judas Priest on British Steel 1980. I guess the opposite is true as well...

That might be ok but I am already getting older, so I better also be getting somewhat wiser.

[MasterDave]

Re: Monarch Level???

Originally posted by bbray1


I've worked out a build cycle that can often snag Stonehenge, Oracle, Pyramids and Parthenon off the bat. (Provided I can ferret out stone and/or marble early.) Even in games where I virtually build every dang Wonder that there is, some civ manages to capapult past me in the late game and beat me to a freakin space race.

I can beat Monarch about half the time, and Prince is a cake-walk now, so maybe I can help. My early build order is typically warriors (or scouts if I have hunting, or work boats if I have fishing and theres fish resources at my capital) until my city reaches size 2 or 3. At city size 2 or 3 depending on my terrain improvemnet techs I will start a worker, then build a settler. After the first settler is out, I will set the capital to build either stonehenge or the oracle depending on whether or not marble or stone is present (if neither, I will usually choose stonehenge). Occasionally I will try to crank out both- one in each city if I have bronze working in time, and there are lots of trees around. Chopping is key to securing these early wonders, and the AI will often beat you to them if you let it. After the first small wonder is done in the capital I will often go for Pyramids next. Parthenon is nice, but I think that Great Lighthouse can have a lot more impact on your economy if you have a lot of coastal cities. However, as you have found out, having all of the wonders does NOT automatically win you the game, so you need to take a balanced approach.

I don't understand how I can be even in the tech race, have 90% of the wonders and still be 2nd or 3rd in the game and then at the final score I get rated somewhere down in the bottom five? OMG Dan Quayle? I know I lost, was second in game, but why such pathetic scoring?


It's hard to offer advice without knowing every strat employed but here are some tendencies:

India Ghandi: Love the zippy workers and civic changes without anarchy. Get Hagia and watch out. Large maps. 6-7 civs. Normal speed. All default wins.

I feel that large maps are inherently a little harder to win because more civs means more competition for religions, wonders, and first to get a tech bonuses. Also, the leading empires will be stronger and scarier on larger maps. Try standard size maps on Monarch until you have a win under your belt.

Workers: mostly let em run on auto. I take control when needing to get to new resources quickly. I let em clear forests for the boost in production. They generally seem to do what I would so I let em rip.

I like to keep some forests up around the cities for the health bonuses and to put off needs for buildings such as aqueducts. Also forests get wonderfully productive with lumbermills and railroads.

Cities: I don't stifle their growth with building settlers/workers until they grow a bit, usually let em go to 2 for that first worker and then 3 or bigger for settlers. I only build one settler out of the capital and let it grow. The pace seems right as I don't go below 70-80% on tech and manage to carve out as much space as the other civs. I usually let the govs have their way except for capital and key builder cities.

I never let governers build up my cities. What to build in the cities depends on what kind of victory condition you want- its totally different when you are going for a culture victory. In general, I will try to have one or two high production cities get barracks then troops. Then in general I try to prioritize beakers in most cities (libraries), culture on border cities (monastaries are great sources for cheap culture - you continue gaining culture from them after scientific method btw, theaters are great for border cities later), cities with lots of commerce and holy shrines should try to build marketplaces, grocers and banks ASAP. And you want a courthouse in every city ASAP also. Most of my building order revolves around raising cash income and keeping my science as high as possible. To maintain tech parity on Monarch, it is a bad idea to let your science go below 70% and ideally you want it at 80 or above most of the time.

Another way to get ahead that did not exist in earlier civs are the great people. You should use your capital, which usually has lots of wonders, and perhaps one other city with lots of surplus food as great person factories. If you have one or more religions, you definitely want those holy shrines. On large maps I have seen my religion spread to 35 or more cities, and that means 70 gold per turn once you have your bank, grocer, and marketplace in your holy city!! All types of great people are useful IMO and you want to maximize them to stay ahead.

Barbs - Whoa! Start with a large mostly land map like Lakes or Pangea and watch them swarm streams of endless hordes! I have lately just turned them off. The civs seem to pick up the slack later and get pissy that I am snagging all the goodies and insist that I give them stuff or die. I don't like to give stuff or die for that matter.

I have never turned off barbs, but I surmise that since they harrass the AI as well, the AI will grow faster in their absence. If you post a few archers on hills outside of your borders in a crude perimeter, you can usually keep them from causing much damage.

Wonders - I generally try to get them all. But Stonehenge, Pyramids (for the early Representation), Great Library, Notre Dame are some on the "must" have list.

There really are no "must have" wonders IMO. My favorites are Pyramids, Oracle, Stonehenge, Great Lighthouse, and Great Library early. Cistine Chapel is critical if you are going for a culture victory. The others are nice, but not worth losing a war or running a bad economy over.

Religions - I try to found at least three religions, especially the early ones, spread around the state religion and get organized religion for the production boost until switching to Pacifist for sick output of Great Peeps.

Unless you are going for culture victory there is not a whole lot of reason to concentrate on monopolizing the early religions. The only good thing about keeping religions away from the AI is that more of the AI will wind up following your religion. However, as Ghandi, I think it is a mistake taking more than one of the first three religions. I am most successful on Ghandi on Monarch when I take Buddhism or Hinduism, then get bronze working next (you start with mining). Having bronze working early enough to chop out your first settler and Stonehenge/Oracle is far more beneficial than getting Judaism IMO.

I worked out a tech tree climb to snag Metal Casting with the Oracle while managing to get 2 or 3 of the early religions to boot. Right to the last tick of finishing the Oracle and Bronze Working on the same turn; early cheap forges rock production. I build libraries early and stay in the tech race, trading often to keep up.

Like I said earlier, having bronze working in time to chop out the Oracle and Stonehenge will save you tons of those critical early turns. Other great techs to have early are pottery to get your towns building nice and early, fishing if you are coastal, and animal husbandry to make pastures and locate horses.

If on a continent I will expand until I butt up to another civ and then grow teeth until they are crushed. I like to have my own continents...Australia? It's just a littly bitty place Mr. Luthor...

An early war on a neighbor can be very helpful if you have access to horses or metal. Something I like to do on Monarch level that can be dangerous, but has a huge payout is to steal workers from Civs the first time I encounter them. If you steal a worker from a civ early enough, it can cripple their development and make them far easier to defeat later. Also, if you can actually get that worker back to your territory safely you have just saved yourself 10-15 turns of critical early production. The AI will rarely mount any kind of a counter attack if you hit them early enough, and if you can pillage their lands a little while you are at it, they will often make peace fairly readily. This IS risky though, as some AIs on Monarch will refuse to make peace until they can attack in force.

I bought Civ4 right when it came out and been at it like a fiend ever since, but Monarch level is still whipping me like a dog... Are the auto controls so retched that it explains the deal? It seems to work for the AI civs. Does the game only reward for relentless war-mongering and that defensive ***-for-tat strats, only warring for growth, just doesn't pay off?

You only need to war relentlessly if you are looking for domination or conquest. Iny any case, it is usually to your benefit to take down at least one of your neighbors before they are strong enough to fight you off, you will need the land area and extra cities to compete with the strongest AIs. To win a space race on Monarch, relentless spying is needed. (HINT: sabotage their spaceship building resources such as aluminum and copper rather than their city production- its way cheaper).

/scratches head

I wonder what it is cuz it's just getting silly at this point...I haven't won a Monarch level game yet. (I suppose I could back off difficulty but after kicking Deity on Civ3 it just feels regressive.) The AI does seem gobs smarter then previous versions, but sheesh!

Oh well. Going back in to try again. Thanks for the 12 step support. My name is Brian and I am addicted to Civ!

Hopefully these tips help. Monarch is pretty challenging and it took me several tries to win one after I had mastered Prince. The AI is smart, in fact it is harder to beat than the majority of humans I play online these days.

[bbray1]

Thanks!

I have employed the suggestions given to me and it has open my eyes to the nature of Civ4. I currently have a Monarch level epic game on a large continent map going and currently second to Mansa and gaining fast. Here are some changes, insights I noted:

Using specialists to "steer" the output of Great People. WOW. Getting that Academy early is killer. I found that no matter what the tendency of Wonders are, like they are geared towards Prophets, I could coax a Scientist out of them with specialists. Yay!

Controlling the resourcing, especially of the capital and key build cities...duh...I must have been lazy or something, but now I run it manually and never going back.

Workers: turned off de-foresting and manually chop. Again, smack to forehead, pretty much time any build.

Tech "slingshots" - I discovered an Oracle sling to Metal Casting all on my own and thought I was clever. I was thinking small...sling up to Civil Service! Manage to snag the Pyramids and have an early Representation and Bureaucracy - watch out!

Civics are bigger than Wonders. And I am losing the urge panic for not grabbing a bunch of them. I didn't get half as many in the game I'm in now and still kicking butt.

I turned the barbs back on because, well, it's the game and need to deal with them. So I built archers and posted them on key resources. They are a pain but you end up with some nicely experienced units.

And just like that I feel that Monarch game getting in the bag. Thanks for all your help. I'll be back - Emporer next!