Consider the caravel

[Yaga]

Perhaps a workaround would be an explorer -> pioneer unit, available with gunpowder, that was relatively weak (say a 4 or 5) but *did* have the gunpowder flag and some of the vs melee / vs archers promotions available. I think this would allow for a "new world invasion" without unduly unbalancing the old.

I'm still not entirely sure if harbor to harbor transport of units a la airports would be a good idea, but I do think it is one that could be explored; you don't have to build locomotives or airplanes adequate for moving your troops around your civ, so why should you have to build a dozen or so ships to achieve the same results?

[Tattila the Hun]

Hear hear.

Those transport ships in Civ3 and 4 seem to be landing craft, for invasions and such. A Higgins boat, infact. (As such, I'm not sure if theyshould be allowed to traverse ocean squares...) I'd love to have something bigger, like your basic Queen Mary, for port-to-port transfer.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by samspock
Either give galleys the ability to cross ocean as long as they can end their turn on a coast or let caravels carry settlers or both.

I think they can carry Settler units.

[Silver14]

Galleys can carry Settlers, Caravels cannot thankfully or I'd have a horde of AI settlers on my territory early on. I like the current limitations of the caravel.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Silver14
Galleys can carry Settlers, Caravels cannot thankfully or I'd have a horde of AI settlers on my territory early on. I like the current limitations of the caravel.

I don't think the computer will build cities they could not defend.

[Silver14]

They'll build cities they can't defend. Like thier capital for instance.

Although lately I've been very aggressive in my games.

[Två blå bananer]

they are able to enter enemy waters without an Open Borders agreement. It would be sneaky if you were allowed to carry troops on a caravel.

Simple solution to this problem, action in question forbidden if they carry troops.

And I think that the zombie has the right general idea, the way to limit AI expansion is to limit the number of troops the ships can carry, not by excluding the ability to carry them, even though I don´t think Work boats should be able to carry. I mean, would YOU build cities near the enemy if all you could ship on, say, a caravel was a settler and a single defensive unit?

Sure, the AI will be able to land troops and build cities on your home continent earlier, but I fail to see how this would lead to mass invasions that the player couldn´t contain easily enough. Creatinge bridgeheads? Sure. Being annoying by stealing the good sites for their own cities? Yes that to. That is , after all what I would use this ability for. Mass invasions? No way.

One word: Logistics.

Besides if they are THAT much stronger than you THAT early, then you´re probably screwed anyway.

[A Henriques]

I don´t know if this will help but here´s some info on Caravels:

Caravels were the "bulk" of the Portuguese Navy during it´s exploration and conquest era. They were good enough to carry the Portuguese armys when invading Ceuta, and other North African cities/trading posts. It was with them that Portuguese Sailors "conquered" the "Bojador Cape" the Cape that was thought to be the edge of the World back then, reached Angola and South Africa, rebaptized the "Torments Cape", becoming the "Good Hope Cape" and thus reaching the formidable riches in India.
It was also using these ships that Portugal discovered "Vera Cruz", later baptized as "Brasil" due to the native wood.
It was a poorly armed ship, with good carrying capacity, and most of it´s technology was aquired from the "moors" (Islamic nations that were well known at the time for their excelent mathmatical and astronomical knowledge), and further deepened. The "Astrolabio" is a tipical example. It was an instrument that used the stars to determine the ships positions very accurately.

In short, I believe that it wouldn´t be any historical inacuracy to allow caravels to carry armys in it. Maybe two units would be a realistic aproach.

Best regards!

[MasterDave]

I think the Vikings getting a longship to replace the Caravel that can carry one regular unit would be a powerful UU, but not overwhelmingly so. It would be pretty risky to put a settler on a new continent or large island with no protection from barbs. Building two longships and sending an escort that way would be sort of expensive, and this would help balance the advantage of getting cross ocean transport earlier.

Alternatively, perhaps the Vikings could get raider units that would be allowed to operate like player-controlled barbarians, raiding other player's territories, pillaging their towns, and enslaving their workers without first declaring war on that player. Of course, as these raiders would be flagged as barbarians, they could also be attacked by any player without first declaring war on the Vikings. As long as the raiders were fairly weak (maybe a replacement for axemen with the same combat stats), I do not think this would unbalance the game, but it would be fun to play.

I would also like to see privateer units become available again in a Civ4 expansion. Privateers were fun in Civ3, although they had a very short window to operate before ironclads and destroyers wiped them from the seas. I would give privateers a four combat strength to make them equal to galleons, and then either allow them to capture ships like in Civ3 or perhaps steal gold from defeated enemies like they did in Colonization.

[Spaced Cowboy]

I still like the it has a chance to die option aka civ3.

[Anakha]

Originally posted by MasterDave
I am not sure why the decision was made not to allow ocean going transports until so late in the tech tree. This is definitely a departure from earlier civs (Navigation in civ3 comes way earlier in the tree than astronomy).

No, it doesn't, astronomy is required for navigation in civ3: Civ 3 Tech Tree

[Två blå bananer]

No, it doesn't, astronomy is required for navigation in civ3: Civ 3 Tech Tree

True, but there are waaaaaaayyyy many more advances that needs to be researched in civ4 before you actually reach astronomy, than it was in civ3.

I think the Vikings getting a longship to replace the Caravel that can carry one regular unit would be a powerful UU, but not overwhelmingly so. It would be pretty risky to put a settler on a new continent or large island with no protection from barbs. Building two longships and sending an escort that way would be sort of expensive, and this would help balance the advantage of getting cross ocean transport earlier.

This assumes there will be a Viking civ in the inevitable expansion, and while I approve of the longship being superior to it´s regular equivalent, well, for starters, I think the longship should replace the galley, not the caravel, and it´s special power, historically speaking, should be an ability to travel on rivers. Fast. The vikings did this to penetrate deep into Russia, and as mentioned before, when they did cross to america, they did "hug the coast", sort of. (Iceland,Greenland)

I still think caravels should be able to carry settlers and regular troops. One or two units.

[Silver14]

I don't think there is any way to have a unit travel on both ocean/coast and river in Civ4 even with modding. Rivers go between squares for one and are not an actual tile. It’s a good idea historically and in theory but I don't see it being possible with the civ4 engine even with the SDK.

[johnmcd]

Originally posted by Silver14
I don't think there is any way to have a unit travel on both ocean/coast and river in Civ4 even with modding. Rivers go between squares for one and are not an actual tile. It’s a good idea historically and in theory but I don't see it being possible with the civ4 engine even with the SDK.

What if the expression of it was not that the boats visually travelled up river but they were able to disembark to any tile that was on the river? The ships stay on the coast but their ability to travel upstream fast is realised.

To further clarify the importance of the ‘cultural’ boundary in Norse exploration of the North Atlantic both Greenland and Vinland are recorded by near contemporary written sources as having been initially discovered by ships blown far off course in storms limping back to harbour with stories of previously unexplored lands. Only then were concerted efforts made to revisit or colonise the new islands – Erik the Red, the first colonist of Greenland, only went as he’d been outlawed in both Norway and Iceland and had run out of places to run to. It was not organised exploration as in the Columbian era adventures. It’s quite possible Iceland was discovered in the same way, albeit much earlier (and lest we forget, when the first Norse settled Iceland they were displacing Irish hermit monks who had already settled it very lightly and travelled there by coracle. I would not suggest the coracle is an ocean going boat yet the voyage from Ireland to Iceland is every bit as tough as the voyage from Greenland to Labrador, the probably Markland of the sagas).

[MasterDave]

Originally posted by Anakha


No, it doesn't, astronomy is required for navigation in civ3: Civ 3 Tech Tree

Sigh. What I meant was that Navigation in Civ3 comes earlier in the tech tree relative to the time frame when astronomy comes in the Civ4 tech tree.

I played Civ3 thousands of times enough to know that astronomy precedes Navigation in the Civ3 tech tree. I think those four Civ3 tech tree screens are permanently burned into my brain after so many games.