Workshops

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Martinus
The +1 food under State Property translates into +2 food compared to normal workshops, since normal workshops substract 1 food.

Not quite that great. Workshops don't subtract from food production under State Property.

Originally posted by Martinus
And also, since you are likely to be first to reach Communism, you can easily build Kremlin - which makes running Slavery actually useful in later game (you are going to have a lot of people).

Why? Kremlin makes it cheaper to rush buy, so you want civics that give you more money.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Not quite that great. Workshops don't subtract from food production under State Property.

Yeah, so as I said, this is 2 food difference compared to workshops with no SP.

Why? Kremlin makes it cheaper to rush buy, so you want civics that give you more money.

Kremlin makes both forms of rushing (money and pop) cheaper, not just money rushing. It is excellent for late-game Slavery when you have fast growing cities. In fact, it works even if others adopt Emancipation, as you can always use it just to kill off the people who are unhappy because of it (and Slavery has 0 upkeep).

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Martinus
Yeah, so as I said, this is 2 food difference compared to workshops with no SP.

That's one food difference: 0 compared with -1

Originally posted by Martinus
Kremlin makes both forms of rushing (money and pop) cheaper, not just money rushing.

Not sure about that, maybe I will test it later.

Originally posted by Martinus
It is excellent for late-game Slavery when you have fast growing cities. In fact, it works even if others adopt Emancipation, as you can always use it just to kill off the people who are unhappy because of it (and Slavery has 0 upkeep).

I will take Emancipation over Slavery any time because of other bonuses.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


That's one food difference: 0 compared with -1

No. Under SP each workshops gives +1 food.
Under any other economy civic each workshop gives -1 food.

It's 2 food difference. Test it in your game.

Not sure about that, maybe I will test it later.

Test this too.

I will take Emancipation over Slavery any time because of other bonuses.

What other bonuses?

Emancipation is only useful in making other civilizations squirm - the faster town growth bonus is a one-time-only thing and usually all your cottages are grown to towns by the time you hit Democracy.

[Aginor]

Emancipation is useful if and only if you have been continuing to expand to your commercial development in the midgame.

If your commerce cities are by and large mature, or if you're attempting to repossess a large amount of conquered territory by way of cultural improvements, Slavery rocks out Emancipation. (Often you will inherit cities with serious happiness problems, and blasting population to build cultural improvements kills two birds with one stone - you get production out of useless population and also deal with your revolt/border filling problem more rapidly.)

If, however, your early cities were more production oriented in order to deal with the war effort and your captured cities represent your primary sources of commerce, running Emancipation for 20 turns can greatly pump up your commerce output and be well worth the anarchy required to run it for that period of time.

[ben_sphynx]

No. Under SP each workshops gives +1 food.
Under any other economy civic each workshop gives -1 food.

It's 2 food difference. Test it in your game.

Testing...
Under State property a grassland by a river with a workshop is giving me 2 food, 3 hammers, 1 commerce.

Under Enviromentalism, that same grassland gives 1 food, 3 hammers, 1 commerce.

It appears that the difference is 1 food.
The +1 food from state property is added on to the -1 food that workshops normally provide, just like everyone else expected.

[Arrian]

I use them only rarely. In a recent game, I had a city that was totally devoted to military production.

It had, IIRC, pigs-on-hill, one floodplain, 3 hills and the rest was (at first) jungled/forested grassland. Why build a cottage there? I built one, IIRC, to get the food balance just so, but I also plunked down a few workshops.

This city had: barracks, HE, West Point, forge/factory, granary/aqueduct/grocer or supermaker, I forget which and a couple of temples, IIRC. It did eventually (modern age) throw down a library... but that was just because I really didn't need another Tank just then.

I never ran state property.

That city was specialized for a specific purpose, and cottages/towns did not really do anything towards that purpose. Workshops are not great, but they have their uses. City Raider III Tanks @ 2 turns per, for instance...

-Arrian

[couerdelion]

What confuses me is why people are using a conversion rate of 3 gold = 1 production when trying to compare towns (with free speech legal civic and universal suffrage government) to workshops (with state property economy civic). For one thing, the comparative advantage of different civics has to be compared to those within the same group so there are many different equations to make.

But I think the biggest mistake is to assume that the price for rush production is a “fair” price to pay and thus devalue the gold in much the same way that slavery places a higher value of property than it does on human life. If you do run with this “price for production” then I hope I can also assume that you would almost never choose to appoint a merchant specialist ahead of an engineer specialist (except perhaps in a Wall Street city and even here you would not do so with a factory).

Using a conversion rate of 3 gold = 2 production gives a much “fairer” comparison of value between towns and workshops and the former then wins hands down.

Here, I will admit to investing in a couple of workshops but I these are temporary establishments to allow me to get banks and universities in the city in question. Once done, I will probably build cottages there and use the city as a home for merchant specialists (plus the occasional engineer) while spending 40 turns to build a hospital or some such happy building. I’ll use other cities to build my army.

[Willem]

Re: Workshops

Originally posted by Jaguar
It gets the 1 food back with State Property, and it gets an additional +2 production, one from chemistry and one from guilds. So, at best, it is +3 production to a flat square.

On Grassland yes, but on a Plains square a Workshop becomes just as good as a Plains hill, with 4 hammers. Add another hammer with a railroad over top. I find them very useful in cities that don't have any Hills in them, at least in the later game. Though I wouldn't recommend them on Grassland, I'd rather put a Cottage on those.

[Arrian]

Add another hammer with a railroad over top.

RR's increase the production of workshops? I thought it was just mines and lumbermills...

-Arrian

[Willem]

Originally posted by Arrian


RR's increase the production of workshops? I thought it was just mines and lumbermills...

-Arrian

As far as I know, anything that produces primarily Hammers gets the railroad bonus. I could be wrong though, I haven't actually stopped to check.

[Common Sensei]

Originally posted by Willem


As far as I know, anything that produces primarily Hammers gets the railroad bonus. I could be wrong though, I haven't actually stopped to check.

If it doesn't then allowing a railroad to do so, or having another technology have a workshop's output increased by a hammer might give the workshop a little boost without being overpowered.

[Quillan]

Railroads do not give a hammer bonus to workshops.

[Civrocx]

You cant plant trees

You cant build hills

So we have workshops.


I think workshops are great ,i can grow during peace time, then i can turn my city in to a production city,
when i get ready to eliminate my neighbor.I think it takes 4 workers to change a tile into a workshop per round?

If you've ever played a map that was made up of say
90% jungle then you should know the value of a workshop.

I think it's essential to have production cites,but i may be wrong . If every city is based around commerce,how would you every produce the troops you need for wartime?

Workshops SHOULD get the bonus from railroads,this would make then complete imo.

One cannot base everything on one tile,its not about the tile its about your overall situation.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Civrocx

Workshops SHOULD get the bonus from railroads,this would make then complete imo.

I agree, which is why I'm going to edit that particular entry in the appropriate XML file. Once I find it.