'Specialists' are underpowered

[Strategist83]

A specialist costs two food and one population point to support. Food, however, is not exactly an abundant ressource. Typically, a farm produces at most three food two of which are eaten by the farmer himself, making for an overall surplus of one measly food point. Do the math and you will reach the conclusion that a specialist costs a massive three population. Is the specialist powerful, then? Not at all - even with the 'representation' civic that boosts specialist research the maximum output of for example the scientist is six beakers. The three population points would have been far better spent on three cottages (towns) which provide a massive +12 commerce - and that is without taking civics like 'free speech' into account. In the end, the sole reason to have specialists is for producing 'Great People'.

I think the weak specialists are a real letdown, because the idea behind them is great. Specialists are meant to depict how the work of Man becomes increasingly more effective through ever-increasing specialization - some few work the land for everybody, freeing up others to do something else. Unfortunately, this is not how it is in the game - even with the 'biology' tech that boost food production from farms by one, you will want the majority to work the lands.

[JackRudd]

Specialists, like anything else, are situation-dependent.

Any of the following can make them more attractive:

a) You have civics or Wonders that improve their output (Representation, the Sistine Chapel, Angkor Wat)
b) You are putting them in a Great People city (typically the one with the National Epic)
c) The local terrain is full of food resources (thus giving far more surplus population)
d) You want the city to not-grow; it's already hitting its health and happiness caps.

[Dominae]

Re: 'Specialists' are underpowered

Originally posted by Strategist83
In the end, the sole reason to have specialists is for producing 'Great People'.

Are Great People underpowered too?

A Scientist's 3 Beakers per turn may not look like much. However, 50 turns later (let's say - it's actually 34 for a non-Philosophical civ) you get a Great Scientist. Cashing him in for a 1000-Beaker tech is equivalent to an additional 20bpt. So during that period the Sciencist was effectively producing 23bpt. Not so bad.

It gets worse as the game goes on and you generate more Great People, true, but luckily Cottages get better. It's not either/or: Specialists and Cottages are both integral to a successful game.

[Dominae]

In other words, if Specialists' per turn output were competitive with Cottages/Towns, Specialists would be the clear winner because of their ability to spawn Great People.

[Strategist83]

Like I said, Great People are the sole reason to have specialists. They are certainly not underpowered. The thing is you will almost always want to have just a single city with specialists, producing Great People. I would have liked gameplay where specialists were powerful enough that you would want them in all your cities, and still more of them as the game progresses.

[Hauptman]

Yeh what he said, I love specialist to death. I over farm certain cities just to make sure it can make LOTS of GP.

Now yes, most of the time, I would rather work a goldmine than assign a merchant. But like he said, if your at your happy cap, growing becomes a bad thing, and readjusting to specialist becomes very benificial.

And if you find yourself over expanded, and running at 30% research... you can continue just growing those cities (to make it even worse) or run caste system, (and merchantilsm if you have it) and assign scientists or merchants, it can quickly negate the loss of research, as they are completely unaffected by the slider.

What it basicly amounts too is, a specialist is worth 1/2 a tile, and a super specialist is worth 1 tile. Under representation, that SS is worth TWO tiles towards research.

[xxFlukexx]

I dunno engineers and priests (with Angkor wat) rock in cities with low production. I have been able to use merchants to make anycity into a gold machine. And as Dominae and others repeat a lot, scientist specialist are great in the early game especially when you are not Financial.

Specialists are not underpowered, they are "carefully balanced". And they are a helluva lot more useful than in Civ3.

[Willem]

Re: 'Specialists' are underpowered

Originally posted by Strategist83
In the end, the sole reason to have specialists is for producing 'Great People'.

I'd say that's reason enough. I'll try to run as many Specialists as I can just for the points.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Strategist83
The thing is you will almost always want to have just a single city with specialists, producing Great People.

I think that's an inefficient way of generating GPs myself, all you can do is mix them up and not specialize. In my games I have a city, sometimes two, devoted to a particular type of specialist. It works better than having a city with a little bit of everything, then crossing your fingers hoping that the one you want pops up. Plus you can maximize your Wonders by placing Scientist generating Wonders in your Science city and having it work with your specialists, for example. It's a much better system than what you suggest IMO, and it means I'm running at least 5 cities with lots of Specialists. At the end of the game it's usualy 8-10.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Not to mention the benefits of running artist specialists. I've been able to get caste system early (before even theatre!) and turn a couple of citizens in my three culture cities to artists.

That's a very nice, very early culture boost if you are going for that kind of victory.

Priests with Ankor Wat are really very nice, although my problem with that is they make engineers completely worthless. I always have to go move my Gov created engineers to priests... stupid Gov.

I guess you could win the game without GP. But academies are very nice, discovering free techs are very nice, completing wonders in one turn is very nice, the cash from the religious shrines are very nice.

Also.. cottages take a while to become towns. If you didn't build them early, it's far better late game to have those citizens become scientists then it is to try and build cottages and work them up.

[Strategist83]

Eye-opener

Originally posted by Willem


I think that's an inefficient way of generating GPs myself, all you can do is mix them up and not specialize. In my games I have a city, sometimes two, devoted to a particular type of specialist. It works better than having a city with a little bit of everything, then crossing your fingers hoping that the one you want pops up. Plus you can maximize your Wonders by placing Scientist generating Wonders in your Science city and having it work with your specialists, for example. It's a much better system than what you suggest IMO, and it means I'm running at least 5 cities with lots of Specialists. At the end of the game it's usualy 8-10.

I just realized after having read this post that my dislike for specialists stem from a misunderstanding. For some reason or another I was under the impression that each Great Person doubled the amount of Great People points required for the next Great Person. This is of course incorrect: Each Great Person increases the cost of the next by the amount the first Great Person cost (at normal speed this is 100 Great People Points (GPP)). This is why I created only one GP city: Had the cost in fact doubled, any city with half as many GPP as the one with the most GPP would never produce a GP, so multiple GP cities would be really ineffective.

Well, well... This thread turned out to be a real eye-opener for me! Thanks for the feedback, it is much appreciated. Sorry about getting you all riled up about specialists being ineffective.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Strategist83
Like I said, Great People are the sole reason to have specialists.

Not necessarily.

For cities with lots of food but no hammer, engineers and priests if you have Ankot Wat are very good at speeding up production.

For border towns artists are awesome for excerting your influence.

[Yosho]

Also, the ability to make specilists instantly at any time gives you a lot of flexability. If you want to finish your wonder a turn or two sooner instead of next turn, you can take off most of your people working water tiles or grassland tiles and make them engineers; sure, you'll lose food, but you can put them back once you finish the wonder, and if you time it right you won't lose a unit of population. Or you can grab a few random people and make them into merchants to make some money right now, if you need it.

[DrSpike]

Specialists are fine.

[Saurus]

I just keep on comparing specialists from CIV 3 to those in CIV 4. They were horribly useless in CIV 3.
This time around specialists are much more useful.