Barbs can definitely change the game

[TheArsenal]

Originally posted by Shaka II

I doubt that beyond the map edge is FOW. Also, I'm not sure there is a great advantage, since you don't normally start right at the edge. If you grow toward the edge instead of to the center, then it limits your expansion and delays contact and trade with other Civs, spread of religion. I suppose it could help, but on a highlands map, the mountain ranges do a pretty good job of making natural barriers, if not semi-infinite, like the map edge. Similarly the water edge helps in a continent map. I've been in that situation frequently on pangea maps, where coastal cities are great for that reason..

While Civs may not on the very edge of the map, placing all the Civs in the game on the Huge Map put a couple of them pretty close. I don't know if contact is slowed too much more than other maps of similar sizze, but trade definitely is. Took forever for me to establish trade with the westernmost nations.

In any case, check out Asoka and Napoleon's starting positions:

[Scumbag]

You're missing part of the fun.

Nope, I'm missing the headaches and annoyance. Nothing comes out of nowhere to take my cities. Nothing surprises me by pretty much rendering the last X turns pointless by killing a unit.
Instead, I can properly focus on the enemies I'm supposed to fight.

Give the Barbarians a chance.

When they are the Civ4 equivalent of a early-turn SMAC mindworm, when they come from a actual origin ("the darkness" is not an actual origin), and when they are destroyed when successfully attacking a base, I will.

They'll make you a better player.

Nonsense - they'll make you into a player that confuses annoyance and irritation with fun. They put the option in the game, remember.

[Solomwi]

Here's a picture from the game that prompted this thread. Huge continents map with the default 11 civs, and check out how close Alexander, Victoria and Peter started to each other. Three civs in a eight tile stretch . If that weren't bad enough, Caesar started a mere seven tiles from Moscow, on a straight NE diagonal. Meanwhile, notice how much room to expand I had in the south. Other than a few English cities, my empire is all organic growth and conquered barb cities. This is why I mentioned above that the game still had much promise.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Scumbag
Nothing comes out of nowhere to take my cities.

If they're taking your cities then obviously you're not defending them properly. Just having a single Archer in them will pretty much prevent them from ever doing so. Not even a Barb Axeman stands a chance. Their main problem is in destroying your improvements, but there again, proper defense will prevent that. Just stick some Archers in the Hills around your borders. No more pillaging, or at least very little.

When they are the Civ4 equivalent of a early-turn SMAC mindworm, when they come from a actual origin ("the darkness" is not an actual origin), and when they are destroyed when successfully attacking a base, I will.

They do come from an actual origin, they build cities just like the rest of the civs. They even work them and if you capture one, you can have a new city with some population and worked terrain. That's a lot more than I ever got from Mindworms. And I'd hardly call popping out of the fungus coming from "somewhere".

Nonsense - they'll make you into a player that confuses annoyance and irritation with fun.

They'll teach you how to defend yourself and give your units some easy promotions so they'll be better prepared if they ever have to fight the real civs.

[Scumbag]

Heh, I thought I left the "learn 2 play" comments at Blizzard's forums.

having a single Archer in them will pretty much prevent them from ever doing so. Not even a Barb Axeman stands a chance.

Hah! If that were even remotely true, I wouldn't have to disable the Barbs in the first place.

Their main problem is in destroying your improvements, but there again, proper defense will prevent that.

"Proper defense" means the other Civs can't destroy my cities or improvements. If I have to change my strategy because some stronger-than-the-other-Civs Barbs will randomly spawn, I will excise them as the flaw they are.

That's a lot more than I ever got from Mindworms.

Exactly. Mindworms = Barbarians = Creeps. Speedbumps, easilly defeatable and controlled.

And I'd hardly call popping out of the fungus coming from "somewhere".

But a player can remove fungus by spending a few turns. Civ4's barbs punish the player for missing spots.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Scumbag
Hah! If that were even remotely true, I wouldn't have to disable the Barbs in the first place.

I've never had a problem with them. An Archer fortified in a city with a couple of ranks of city defense wins everytime in my games. The only time I sweat is when they come at me 2 or 3 at a time, which is seldom. Same goes with an Archer on a Hill with a couple of ranks of Guerilla. Only Swordsman make me nervous and by that time I usually have enough Archers placed around my hinterland that I don't get much in the way of fog of war anymore anyway. Plus I'll have a battalion of Horse Archers who can rush to scene and easily take care of him.

"Proper defense" means the other Civs can't destroy my cities or improvements. If I have to change my strategy because some stronger-than-the-other-Civs Barbs will randomly spawn, I will excise them as the flaw they are.

Which the barbs will help teach you and prepare you for. They're good at pointing out your weak spots.

But a player can remove fungus by spending a few turns. Civ4's barbs punish the player for missing spots.

But they reappear with a vengeance if your cities get too developed. I don't know how many times fungus would suddenly pop up near a city, along with some very big Mindworms. At least when the FoW is banished, you're done with the Barbs. They don't just suddenly appear in your heartland just because you've been developing your territory.

But to each his own I guess. Since I play on Marathon, the early game would be quite boring for me without the Barbs. The other civs don't start getting antsy until about the Middle Ages or so, which is a couple of days of playing for me. And Barbs are consant reminder to me to build up my military, something I would probably tend to forget about until it was too late.

[Blake]

"Proper defense" means the other Civs can't destroy my cities or improvements. If I have to change my strategy because some stronger-than-the-other-Civs Barbs will randomly spawn, I will excise them as the flaw they are.

After all, Rome never had to change their strategy to beat the Barbarians. Ohwait.

[Destroyer]

On huge maps or bigger, scout around as much as you can early on.

The expand toward the nearest coastline.

Being right in the middle of a massive landmass, with no AI civs close by makes the game very very difficult, as you will need a huge standing army to patrol your boarders.

Once you have expanded to a coastline or two, you will have much less border to protect.

Barbs are the best feature of Civ4. They completely alter the entire dynamic of the 1st half of the game.

What Civ4 needs is the same kind of effect late game to make this the greatest game of all time.

[PJL]

Originally posted by Destroyer
On huge maps or bigger, scout around as much as you can early on.

The expand toward the nearest coastline.

Being right in the middle of a massive landmass, with no AI civs close by makes the game very very difficult, as you will need a huge standing army to patrol your boarders.

Once you have expanded to a coastline or two, you will have much less border to protect.

Barbs are the best feature of Civ4. They completely alter the entire dynamic of the 1st half of the game.

What Civ4 needs is the same kind of effect late game to make this the greatest game of all time.

Mod an Alien invasion during the late game then......

[TheHateMale]

Let the AI develop _slightly_ faster and play Terra games.

That thought scares me though. They usually have grenadiers by the time it's fully cleared. (Although this tends to be a relatively short time after they have archers - far faster than another Civ could research...)

[Hauptman]

Originally posted by PJL


Mod an Alien invasion during the late game then......

Martian "Tripod"; Armored unit.
Move 1, Strength 50 +25% vs Gunships, collateral damage, Can Bombard city defenses. Spawns Only within cultural borders.


4 or 5 of those in your heartland can really change things....

[EternalSpark]

Just FYI, I'm 'Scumbag'. Forgot I had this older account, I've already PMed DQ about it.

only time I sweat is when they come at me 2 or 3 at a time, which is seldom.

Making sure not to have the "rampaging" option on, standard barbswarms I'll have to deal with usually happen in the 4-5 group.

Which the barbs will help teach you and prepare you for.

All the Barbs have 'taught' me is that they have no place in the game.

don't know how many times fungus would suddenly pop up near a city, along with some very big Mindworms.

Not if you played properly. I'd like that Civic or something in Civ 4 - Barbs don't deal with you any more. I've rationalized my disabling of barbs under the assumption that any barbarians are so small and weak that they never require my player's attention.

After all, Rome never had to change their strategy to beat the Barbarians. Ohwait.

Barbs didn't kill Rome. Rome killed Rome. Call it 'changing the state religion to christianity in half of the empire, and remove all non-christian temples and stuff' or something.

[Urban Ranger]

I don't know about you, but now I play all my games with "raging barbarians" turned on. It presents quite a different set of challenges, completely unlike the regular computer players. I usually do this at one difficulty level lower, but it's still a lot of fun. If you think the computer players having a bonus against barbarians at the higher levels, you can adjust that by modifying the XML files.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by Solomwi
Here's a picture from the game that prompted this thread. Huge continents map with the default 11 civs, and check out how close Alexander, Victoria and Peter started to each other. Three civs in a eight tile stretch . If that weren't bad enough, Caesar started a mere seven tiles from Moscow, on a straight NE diagonal. Meanwhile, notice how much room to expand I had in the south. Other than a few English cities, my empire is all organic growth and conquered barb cities. This is why I mentioned above that the game still had much promise.

That's pretty strange (bug?), but I suppose continents can lead to some unusual starting positions. Maybe you're lucky you started this close together and with water as a natural barrier. The barbarians in the wilderness are scary.

If you want to try a hard barbarian map, try huge highlands with the default 11 civs. On highlands the civ spacing seems to be equidistant in my limited experience.

I've been playing standard highlands with 9 instead of 7 civs to make it a bit tighter, and the barbs are perfect in my opinion. I have to try the huge highlands map again now that I've got 3G of memory. Mainly just for the barb experience.

The biggest problem is usually that they sneak up on me and ruin tile improvements. But well promoted and fortified archers on the outskirts of towns are adequate defense against even axemen, though it's nice to get the copper/iron hooked up early.

[Solomwi]

Oh, I didn't start close to anybody, or have a natural water barrier. Athens is the closest capital to mine, a "mere" 25.5 (treating diagonals as 1.5) tiles away. That likely contributed to my larger than I'm used to barb problems, but as said above, worked out to my benefit in the long run. An ORG civ with that much elbow room is a dangerous thing indeed.