In the end, the game suffers under the same shortcoming as so many other games:

[Strategist83]

...Your survival is entirely reliant on multiple opponents not ganging up on you. When all is said and done, victory or defeat is thus a matter of random luck. You can be the best player in the world - you will still lose if first attacked by Alexander, then Tokugawa and perhaps Montezuma too, seeking to get hold of their shares of the spoils of war.

For example, I have this game going where Hatshepsut and I are best friends. Hatty wants to go to war with Monty and I am not all reluctant to join in on the fun. Monty? He would be dead meat if it were not for my half-hearted military effort.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Luck?

Most would call that "Diplomacy." Ignore it altogether and yes, you're facing luck. Most don't.

And the best player in the world can handle a 2v1 or a 3v1 pretty consistently, I'd guess.

[Strategist83]

Diplomacy? A third faction jumping in out of the blue to partake in gaining land at the attacked civilization's expense has nothing to do with diplomacy.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Clearly we have different interpretations of what the concept means, then.

[yin26]

Luck and skill both play roles -- skill, of course, also creates a lot of luck.

For me, the bigger issue is that even friendly civs should still want to win the game. Where this gets tricky is how do you make that happen without forcing a silly dog pile on the player? Ages of Man has good mechanisms in this regard, and I hope Civ 4 finds good ways to get at this issue in a constructive way. A dog pile, of course, is no fun.

[Saurus]

In a certain way you are right.
It does not really matter how "well" you play as if the A.I decides to get rid of you he will do so no matter what. Expecially if this happens early on.
And No - a decent defense do not help. It may help if you fend of a single intruder. If everyone turns against you witch often is the case, then no defense will hold.
Diplomacy won't do any good either as the one betraying you can in fact be anyone ... your best friend perhaps. And besides there is nothing to conduct diplomacy with early in the game anyway.

I just played a game were I had a terriffic start playing as Qin. Great produktion, an adequate defense in ALL cities (witch is very unusual for me during the early turns) and an early religion witch already had spread to several neighbouring civs.

I felt much more confident and secure than usual
when suddenly my brother in faith, Salladin, witch was Friendly toward me, suddenly declared war out of the blue ... next turn Hyana Capac + Kublai Khan joins in.
Hell, even under theese cicumstances I was able to hold out for more than 30 turns fending of wave after wave after wave of invaders from all directions as I WAS strong to begin with.
... in the end nobody gained anything.

The diplomacy in the game is fun ... but sometimes it does not make any sence at all ..

[TheHateMale]

Maybe being at war drops your relative strength to the AI? In that case, once one declared, the others would see you as easy pickings.

I find having a bunch of units where your opponent can see them helps discourage war. Might well be coincidence though.

[Strategist83]

I agree

Originally posted by yin26
For me, the bigger issue is that even friendly civs should still want to win the game. Where this gets tricky is how do you make that happen without forcing a silly dog pile on the player? Ages of Man has good mechanisms in this regard, and I hope Civ 4 finds good ways to get at this issue in a constructive way. A dog pile, of course, is no fun.

Exactly. Exactly exactly exactly!! This is what I have been saying all the time! And I agree this is a bigger issue to begin with. Civs 'role-play' too much - they care more about being 'brothers of the faith', for example, than they care about winning. Call me a cynic, but if a 'teammate' is about to win, I *will* backstab him! That is, I suppose, what most humans would do - and that is what I wish the AI would do, too.

[Strategist83]

Originally posted by Saurus
I just played a game were I had a terriffic start playing as Qin. Great produktion, an adequate defense in ALL cities (witch is very unusual for me during the early turns) and an early religion witch already had spread to several neighbouring civs.

I felt much more confident and secure than usual
when suddenly my brother in faith, Salladin, witch was Friendly toward me, suddenly declared war out of the blue ... next turn Hyana Capac + Kublai Khan joins in.
Hell, even under theese cicumstances I was able to hold out for more than 30 turns fending of wave after wave after wave of invaders from all directions as I WAS strong to begin with.
... in the end nobody gained anything.

The diplomacy in the game is fun ... but sometimes it does not make any sence at all ..

This is most interesting, because it contradicts what Yin and I experience. Maybe there is a cynical backstabbing bastard hidden somewhere in the AI after all? I would sure like to think so!

I would love to get abused by the AI like that, if only to see that it is in fact possible.

[Hauptman]

Re: I agree

Originally posted by Strategist83


Exactly. Exactly exactly exactly!! This is what I have been saying all the time! And I agree this is a bigger issue to begin with. Civs 'role-play' too much - they care more about being 'brothers of the faith', for example, than they care about winning. Call me a cynic, but if a 'teammate' is about to win, I *will* backstab him! That is, I suppose, what most humans would do - and that is what I wish the AI would do, too.

So if your best friend found the perfect girl and was gonna get married and live happily ever after, You'd stab him in the back and steal his woman? Remind me to defend my borders heavily when your around. it is not human nature to stab those who you are friendly with for your own gain unless you are an evil SOB.

So having a friendly civ not attack you when your down, perhaps even gifting you units or techs would be more realistic.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Strategist83
Diplomacy? A third faction jumping in out of the blue to partake in gaining land at the attacked civilization's expense has nothing to do with diplomacy.

Well, you can avoid being on the wrong end of a dog-pile with diplomacy. As soon as someone declares war on you, I always see who I can bribe to declare war on the enemy. If you get one or two other civs on your side, you won't get dogpiled; at worse, you'll start world war I, which is risky but not always bad.

Anyway, if I see one civ getting beaten up and losing most of their units in a war with a second civ, I'll jump in and grab some cities before the weaker one gets gobbled up. So why wouldn't the AI?

[Yosho]

Re: Re: I agree

Originally posted by Hauptman

it is not human nature to stab those who you are friendly with for your own gain unless you are an evil SOB.

I see you have never played Diplomacy.

[Arrian]

Exactly. Exactly exactly exactly!! This is what I have been saying all the time! And I agree this is a bigger issue to begin with. Civs 'role-play' too much - they care more about being 'brothers of the faith', for example, than they care about winning. Call me a cynic, but if a 'teammate' is about to win, I *will* backstab him! That is, I suppose, what most humans would do - and that is what I wish the AI would do, too.

Huh? You complain in the opening post about the AI dogpiling. Then, a few short posts later, you claim you want the AI to try and win, and cite backstabbing a friendly human as a method to such a victory.

Does. Not. Compute.

What do you want, exactly? An AI that will (stupidly) not "dogpile" on civs that are already losing (stupidly b/c they would forego easy gains), but that is supposedly trying to win? I don't understand...

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Incidently, I've been sneak attacked by AI civs that were "friendly" or "pleased" with me, because my military was ridiculously weak at the time.

They WILL hit you if you present an inviting target.

-Arrian

[Aro]

Originally posted by Arrian



Does. Not. Compute.

-Arrian

I would like to hear Nimoy saying this!