Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Civ 4: The Game That Keeps on Giving!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Civ 4: The Game That Keeps on Giving!

    It's a testament to Civ 4 that I am still crafting my preferred strategies. By this point, I would normally be thinking about moving on to another game, but with Civ 4, I feel I'm still learning.

    For example, I've been trying wildly different approaches looking for the style the suits me best. Last week I choose Ghengis Khan to give early game rushing another try. The Keshik unique unit looked awfully powerful for how early in the game it comes, and it doesn't require copper (IIRC). In short order, I had a horde of these bad boys and began, not unlike the Khans themsevles, to chew up everything in my path. It was great fun. Until, of course, I realized I couldn't afford more cities that early -- so I had to raze cities. I found myself thinking, "Hmmm, this is an interesting slash and burn dynamic that is likely to run out of fuel." While I managed to severely cripple one neighbor and was nipping at the heels of the next, my all or nothing approach began to implode: units were now disbanding because I had no money in the coffers (even after sacking cities as quickly as possible), and even that "crippled" AI next to me was now, by virtue of having kept he tech spending at least above my level of zero, producing counters to my one-trick ponies (well, Keshiks). Sure enough, whereas I was a terror in the early era, I was about to get whooped on. Game over.

    My next game, however, I went completely in the other direction. Roosevelt. Price level. Small map. 7 Civs. This time around the goal was the opposite: Never let tech spending drop below 100%. In most games, I was comfortable dropping to 70% or even 40% at times in order to fund expansion, but something always seemed a little wrong with that approach to me because while I could match the AI on the number of cities, I think the AI handicaps make this strategy alone a bit tenuous as the AI will almost inevitably get a tech lead on you, which means you don't have much to trade, which means a spiral of insignificance can ensue for your civ unless you make key allies and work the game that way. I'm not saying it can't be done, but you have to be careful. So this Roosevelt game, which I won by Space Race last night, proved very interesting:

    * I had only 3 cities for the bulk of the game and only had 6 cities by the end -- two of which were added only in the mop up phase.
    * I never dropped below 100% tech spending, and this meant that I consistently had at least one good tech that at least one other AI was willing to make a great trade for.
    * I kept fewer units -- but relatively advanced ones -- on hand for defense, and this allowed me to put more money toward tech spending rather than having a larger but outdated army around. That said, of course, my power rating was still never that high.
    * I gave a lot more thought to how to think about alliances, and this proved central to the win as my two neighbors eventually became Jewish while I had gone with Buddhism. Well, I converted, gave my buddies some great trades, the occasional free tech, "joined" them (at least on paper, which seems a bit of an exploit) in was against their neighbors (who were far enough from me to pretty much ignore), etc. So, while my score NEVER looked all that great, I eventually had these two civs "Pleased" or "Friendly" with me through much of the game.
    * I encouraged wars -- sometimes by giving away some awesome techs -- between the other AIs so that they would chew on each other. So with the exception of two anemic attacks on me (one, in fact, from one of my "Friendly" buddies after I entered a Defensive Pact with the other "Friendly" partner), I managed kind of a classic builder's strategy.

    While the Space Victory itself proved a bit of a slog once all the geopolitics were in place and it was just a matter of building wonders (and space ship parts) like crazy, I must say that getting to this point was remarkably interesting. Most of all, I'm stunned that 3 cities (highly developed) pretty much carried the day. I also saw the power of a tech lead in all facets of play, particularly in bribing the AI to start wars against itself. The importance of religion --something that has taken time to appreciate-- became clear this game as 1) I wanted to grow individual cities as far as possible and needed the happines modifiers of temples, etc., 2) income generate and 3) device for fostering allies. These things already made sense on paper, but seeing them play out in a gratifying way has been fun.

    So, two of the latest lessons for me are: Ignore score! Well, if you are playing for a timed victory, you *have* to worry, but in general I was pretty much last in score for most of the game, and that proved to be irrelevant. Yes, you can check the graphs to see how far behind you are in various areas, but I think sum of those outcomes is much, much less telling than the whole. The other important lesson is that it is quite possible indeed to have the smallest empire but the greatest tech lead, and this was an entirely new approach for me that ended in a fun win.

    Actually, an great final lesson is simply this: Civ 4 has managed to put back some serious strategy in strategy gaming. Yes, there are still areas that need to be worked on (a rather dull end game, in my view, or allies that give you credit for "helping" them in a war even though you do nothing, etc.), but for the life of me I haven't had a game yet when I wasn't punished for not thinking through strategy well enough. Also, while 100% tech worked well for me this time, I'm willing to bet my optimal strategy will be more nuanced, involving *some* early pre-emptive strikes on neighbors, for example, so that I don't rely almost solely on good relationships to survived, etc. In other words, you can craft a challenging and dynamic victory for yourself in a number of ways that all involve careful planning and execution.
    I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

    "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

  • #2
    P.S. I also set my cities to preference creating Great People. That's an important consideration! I believe the computer uses GPs like crazy, and I can see why now.
    I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

    "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

    Comment


    • #3
      Ignore score was something I always did in Civ. Actually, I think the CivIV scoring system is better than the previous iterations. But it still doesn't guarantee anything, and it can turn around in a hurry.

      I had the exact same experience as Khan - I crushed one neighbor and could've harrassed a second, but I was getting into serious budget trouble and falling back in tech badly.

      The AI is indeed big on great people - sometimes I think it goes too far (farming over its towns late and running 6+ specialists in a city whilst trying to build, say, the Apollo Program).

      I agree that you should have to actually HELP in a war to get a bonus (and that the diplo bonus should scale the more you help) but it's gotta be hard to decide how to track that. I think rolling in stealing cities out from under your "ally" shouldn't give you all that much benifit, but using your army to stomp the enemy's invasion force that was poised to wreck your ally should give a big time bonus. Capturing a city that was once your ally's and giving it back - same thing. Gifting your ally advanced units should be a good thing too.

      100% science is nice and all, but I'd rather be a tad bigger and stronger, and run an 80% that produces more than your 3-city 100%. Like you said, the optimal strategy lies in the middle somewhere.

      Glad to hear you're still enjoying it, Yin. You're hard to please.

      -Arrian
      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

      Comment


      • #4
        You do give a benefit to an allied civ in wartime without spending a single unit. You cannot trade with the enemy, for a start. You may be cutting off open border access to a third party to prevent trade, and your are (theoretically) less likely to attack.

        The AI does leave itself hammer-short for the SS at times, but if it could just focus on a couple more high production cities and manage to choose the right city to build the big things, it could be better. I've seen a Space program in a heavy commerce city while a hammer city was building an non-useful growth build, for example.

        And Yin - I'm really pleased that you're enjoying the strategic depth.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cort Haus
          You do give a benefit to an allied civ in wartime without spending a single unit. You cannot trade with the enemy, for a start. You may be cutting off open border access to a third party to prevent trade, and your are (theoretically) less likely to attack.

          The AI does leave itself hammer-short for the SS at times, but if it could just focus on a couple more high production cities and manage to choose the right city to build the big things, it could be better. I've seen a Space program in a heavy commerce city while a hammer city was building an uneeded growth build, for example.
          Well, I was already the enemy of that other civ, and my position on the map made my borders irrelevant. Under other circumstances, of course, you have a point. I wish, though, the mechanic were more involved, but it's not a game breaker by any means. You also sometimes end up wishing much later in the game that you hadn't made such an enemy even madder at you, so there is some consequence.

          Regarding the Space Race, I have read about the AI not optimizing itself properly. Frankly, even if that gets solved (which one imagines it will), I might turn it off for the moment. The problem, though, is the other victory conditions (with "Timed" turned off as well) lead to either an unsatisfying --for me-- military campaign that shows the limits of the game design (it's not a good war game and doesn't really try to be) or a cultural victory that, although I haven't tried it, seems awfully hard to get and is likely a much greater slog than is the Space Race victory. Well, all things being equal, maybe I'd better leave on Space Race victory!

          Really, though, I think my point is that the end game doesn't really need to wow me so much as long as the early, mid and late game have something good to offer. So far, I'd say the game delivers, and I'm certain that the end game will get X-Pack attention. At that point, well, what a game!
          I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

          "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cort Haus
            And Yin - I'm really pleased that you're enjoying the strategic depth.
            Missed this line: Indeed! You can see from my review that I simply didn't have enough time to get at barely the surface of it all. I'm quite impressed.
            I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

            "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Arrian
              100% science is nice and all, but I'd rather be a tad bigger and stronger, and run an 80% that produces more than your 3-city 100%. Like you said, the optimal strategy lies in the middle somewhere.

              Glad to hear you're still enjoying it, Yin. You're hard to please.

              -Arrian
              Yes, I'm looking forward to finding the stategic sweet spot. True, I am hard to please...though that likely says as much about a defect in my nature as it might about the game in question.
              I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

              "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

              Comment


              • #8
                Civ4 keeps on giving. Or is it taking? Consuming my spare time, becoming an obsession?

                I think Civ 4 comes close to perfection for the TBS genre, significantly improving on previous versions, increasing the number of strategies and technological development paths, introducing new features for combat promotion, and great people, multiple religious strategies, enhanced diplomacy. Firaxis has done well.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Being new to the Civ world, but having played other strategy games to obsession, I would agree 100%. I just finished my first Prince game where I slaughtered everyone. Granted my starting locations were excellent, but I actually seemed to do everything else well too. There has never been a game that took so long to learn to play well and I am only on Prince! I launched in 1843 with a score that was 50% higher than anyone else. I managed to make a good group of friends while keeping everyone else at war with my enemies. I was forced to take out that mad dog Monty early on, which forced me to get my power rating high for a change. After that it was cruise mode. After many losing games it is nice to finally start to 'get it'. Congrats to Firaxis and Soren for a great game. Now if only they could add MTW style warfare to the game I would be in heaven!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Crossfire Now if only they could add MTW style warfare to the game I would be in heaven!


                    I compromise by loading my RTW building music in my classical era music folder along with a few old civ2 and civ3 tunes. You do have RTW? One of the battle tunes was mixed in there by mistake, so I get pretty worked up when that one comes on.

                    I'm not sure that the RTS battles are a fit for the civilization player, though it works great with the ancient and medieval eras of MTW/RTW. Wars with castles, fields, mountains, forests, jungles would be neat. Maybe it could work in civ, but I see it as two separate genres. The RTW player may not have the patience to sit through a civ game. Though the games are just as long, the RTS action holds the interest. Then there are people like me that tired long ago of the AOE type game, but was blown away by RTW. Barbarian Invasion expansion rocks!

                    In the end, civ is always what I come back to.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have passionately played Total War games since Shogun came out. Before I started playing CIV4 I would have said that MTW was the best strategy game ever written. Personnally, I thought RTW was really weak! They need speed sliders in both sections of the game and the battle AI was appalling. I haven't bought BI because most others like me thought the AI was not significantly improved. Many of the most ardent supporters of MTW also played CIV and pressed for RTW to move in that direction. I think they failed mostly though. CIV4 is soooo bloody complex I am not sure I will ever get it all, but in the meantime I have become a complete addict again. I am starting to win on Monarch so I guess I am doing ok for a CIV newbie. There are also so many options (like OCC) available that I think I will probably play this game long enough to gain the expertise I had in MTW after 2 years of playing it.

                      Oh, and my favorite ever game music was Viking Mobilize from VI.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        "CivIV: It's Like Syphilis"

                        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                        Comment


                        • #13


                          yep it's brilliant.

                          I like culture play, as war sucks out a lot of time. So most of the time I keep my civs small and go for it, it is possible with all the civs but I have not started making the most out of the strategy as well it's too interesting to play than just really focus on the "winning as fast as possible" yet.

                          It is quite fun and the different leader traits make it for interestinly different games, but with Culture win you can win even if you have only 3 cities, which is fun, I guess the optimum is 9 cities, as many religions and GP as you can get, and naturally as little war as possible.

                          Last game I played as Peter who is probably the best leader for culture win (or at least one of the three best) and it was quite good, I got the early wonders and 6 religions, was progressing quite fast but during the game the French and Mongols attacked me which slowed me down but I managed to win until 1926. I need to take care a lot more with diplomacy, but I just like to ignore the dudes and they punish me for that (as it should be)
                          Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
                          GW 2013: "and juistin bieber is gay with me and we have 10 kids we live in u.s.a in the white house with obama"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Crossfire
                            I have passionately played Total War games since Shogun came out. Before I started playing CIV4 I would have said that MTW was the best strategy game ever written. Personnally, I thought RTW was really weak! They need speed sliders in both sections of the game and the battle AI was appalling. I haven't bought BI because most others like me thought the AI was not significantly improved.
                            You may be right. I never played MTW, just RTW. The battle AI is lacking certainly, but overall, the game was still great. BI did improve many problems, but mainly by degrees. But the concept of barbarian invasions was part of the appeal, and historical.

                            Originally posted by Crossfire
                            Many of the most ardent supporters of MTW also played CIV and pressed for RTW to move in that direction. I think they failed mostly though.
                            I don't know if MTW had the same turn base/RTS mix, but RTW does it perfectly, though the battle AI is flawed.

                            Originally posted by Crossfire
                            CIV4 is soooo bloody complex I am not sure I will ever get it all, but in the meantime I have become a complete addict again. I am starting to win on Monarch so I guess I am doing ok for a CIV newbie. There are also so many options (like OCC) available that I think I will probably play this game long enough to gain the expertise I had in MTW after 2 years of playing it.
                            The complexity is part of the appeal. There are many levels and strats to play in civ4.

                            Originally posted by Crossfire
                            Oh, and my favorite ever game music was Viking Mobilize from VI.
                            Viking Invasion expansion to MTW?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Yes, the VI expansion pack had THE BEST music! MTW was just like RTW except that the strategy map was like Risk. Personnally, I thought the Viking Invasion campaign was the best Total War there was. Trying to win as the Welsh or Picts who were very weak early in the game was the best challenge. Early aggression was imperative or the larger, richer civs would quickly out produce you and you were doomed to a slow turtled death. Sound familiar?

                              What made MTW so great was the battle system. While not 3D, the actual movements of the units was far more realistic than RTW. You just didn't have the ability to zoom in as much. But to win, you actually needed viable tactics, even against the AI. Instead of the 10 to 1 win/loss ratios so common in RTW you would often be happy with 2 or 3 to 1. There were some battles where I would have superior troops but vastly inferior numbers and at the end of a battle I would be exhausted. Just trying to control the morale of your men against vast numbers could be trying.

                              Now CIV doesn't have that half of the equation (and I miss it) but the civ building half is so much more complex that it makes up for it. I feel like I am back in college cramming for exams every time I up the difficulty level in Civ4. I can only hope to one day have the grasp over the game that someone like Vel has. However, I will put the time and effort in to try to get there! In the meantime, I hope for many months of happy (but tired) gaming while waiting for someone to provide the ultimate game which would be to combine the complexity of Civ4 with a great (and intelligent) battle engine.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X