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**VetLegion** · January 11, 2006, 10:47

You can't learn the game without playing it. I'm in a similar situation to you, I've played only four or five games so far (mostly normal settings, Monarch). I still don't know what does every technology do, what wonders to build, and I can't remember are horse archers a mounted unit or an archer unit

**mimi** · January 11, 2006, 11:04

I've been reading the postings in here to learn because, apparently, the world does not stop just because I want to play Civ 4 and so I don't have enough time to learn everything by playing.

So I read a strategy, get my bottom kicked when I attempt it, then post questions on what I might have misunderstood when I tried that strategy.

I might, someday, win a game. (nope, won't drop below Noble level either... girl's gotta draw the line somewhere)

**Velociryx** · January 11, 2006, 12:16

It's a good question, and a fair question. I don't know if I have a worthy answer for you, but I will try. Worst case, it'll give you something to read until someone with a better answer comes along (

), so here goes:

The SAME MECHANISM you mentioned with regards to picking tech choices to "unlock" future tech choices, also applies here (to the CS Slingshot, and other stuffs). It's the same exact thought process.

Having said that, I think that you can and do see the big picture (since you already understand the value of gun powder and such), it's just that it is easy to allow the big picture to become obscured when you're in the middle of the game itself.

One thing that I find useful, is to always view the game with "two sets of eyes." On the one hand, you obviously need to attend to immediate needs (proper garrisons, basic infrastructure, etc), and these things need to happen, no matter what else you are doing. Consider these to be the cost of doing business, Civ-Style. On the other hand though, you need to be mindful of where you are "going" with your Civ of choice, and the implications of that chosen direction.

Strategy cannot be formed in the absence of information. Without information, you are reacting, NOT formulating strategy, so that's the first step. Get some information.

Fortunately, information is easy to come by, although it can be somewhat hard to decipher until you get the hang of it.

My first step then, will be to introduce you to the nuts and bolts information, as a means of arriving at the ultimate answer to your question.

Before we even get to the information, however, you need to understand the mechanics of vertical and horizontal growth (mentioned in the same thread you grabbed the description of the CS Slingshot from). The CS Slingshot, for example, is a VERTICAL strategy. It revolves around packing as much commerce into your capitol as you possibly can, in order to maximize the gains from two back-to-back 50% increases in your capitol's research capabilities. Thus, it doesn't work as well if you are forever pop-rushing your capitol to size one to build infrastructure--this is not to say that you CAN'T pop rush in the capitol under these conditions...only that each pop rush must be considered in terms of what it will "do" to your total outputs (ie - pop rushing a university might wind up being a good thing, provided you don't lose more than 1-2 points of pop, while pop-rushing a barracks would almost never be worthwhile in the captiol geared for max science). Contrast this with a Pyramids + early Mercantilism strategy, which is very definitely horizontal (Merc = 1 free specialist per city, Pyramids (Representation) gives +3 beakers per specialist....of course, until you GET to Merc, you can certainly run it as a vertical play, but obviously you'll get more mileage out of it, the more specialists you have--and if you run early representation vertically, then it's the happiness effect that is more important than the added beaker output).
The examples given above then, are a case-in-point of the KIND of thinking that goes into such decisions, but enough with all that. Let's talk about the information itself.

Your first stop should be the f9 summary screen, and the stats that come with it. In particular, pay close attention to the following:

GNP
Production
Food

and to a lesser extent:

Soldiers
Land Area
Population

These are really what drive the game. Knowing "where you stand" with regard to these figures will take you quite some distance in figuring out what you need to do.
So...where do these numbers COME from?

Well, in particular, the first three are the aggregate net totals of the production in all your cities (note the word NET there...it only comes into play once, but it is IMPORTANT!).

To see the exact breakdown, close out of the f9 screen (after jotting the numbers for gnp, production, and food), and get back to the main game screen. Up in the top right, where your icons are that take you to your various screens, click on the...I believe it's the very first one in the row (doing this from memory). When it comes up, you should be looking at a spread-sheety thing that lists all your cities, when they were founded, their individual outputs, and what they're currently building.

If you add up the food totals for each city, you'll get the food number listed on the f9 screen. Likewise, if you add up each city's hammer outputs, you'll arrive at the same total listed in the f9 summary, but here's the rub....if you add up the commerce, you'll prolly get a number different from (and greater than) what is listed in the summary screen.

So where's the difference?

Maintenance costs.

If you close out of the spreadsheet, and click over to your maintenance summary (where it shows how much you're spending due to military, civic choices, and number of cities/distance from the capitol, you'll get some number of gpt. Subtract this from the aggregate total you arrived at when you looked at the spreadsheet, and your number should match the f9 summary.

And that's where the numbers come from. Useful to know, because it really makes you think about adding that next city or not....what will it give you? What will it cost? Now, you know just where to look to find out. And this is the basis and foundation for strategy.

So...if you want to out-produce the AI, now you know how to find out "where you are" in relation to them (which in turn, tells you more-or-less what you need to do). Same with food--and by extension, population. Same with GNP, but note that research is a different beast from GNP. Related, yes, but not the same, because research has its own set of modifiers (a library, for example, modifies the portion of your GNP set aside for research, as generated by a particular city NOT the same thing as increasing your GNP itself).

The ones I listed as being of lesser importance are soldiers, land area, and population. I regard these as less important because: a) you don't need as many soldiers as the AI to win the game. b) Land area is a good rule of thumb, but not necessarily telling (more land generally means more specials, and certainly means more potential tiles to work, but unless you ARE working them, then the added land area doesn't net you anything, at least not immediately), and population is a renewable resource, which is why pop-rushing is so attractive...if the thing you rush pays a handsome dividend and gets you closer to whatever you're trying to accomplish, then it's worth the (temporary) loss of a bit of population, although you will note that your score and "graph" will flatten out or drop, as those measures are heavily influenced by population...don't sweat it, it doesn't mean you are losing).

So that's the mechanical aspect of it. The next step is to take the mechanics, and mesh them with some sort of action. Pick something and make a wish. Maybe you just started a new game, and it's...."I wish I could dramatically increase my research capabilities."

So head over to the spreadsheet summary and have a look.

We'll assume this is a new game, so odds are, you'll only have 1-2 cities on the sheet.

Note that your capitol (by virtue of the palace) is heads and shoulders more productive than almost any second city you have (the exception being if you founded your second city near a bunch of gold/silver mines or gems or something).

You want more research, your choices are these:
1) build more cities and spam LOTS of cottages (somewhat terrain dependant)

2) cherry pick new city sites around precious metals and gems (VERY terrain dependant)

3) go all out in increasing the productivity of the capitol (relatively un-terrain dependant)

In almost every case, option 3 is the only logical choice.
So what's next? Well...a library in the capitol will give you a 25% boost, all by itself, so that's a good start.
Once the library is up and running, temporarily choking growth to support 2 scientist specialists (for the G-Man points) will get you a Great Scientist in short order. If he's used to create an academy IN the capitol, then you just gained another 50% bonus. That's not bad, but there's more you can do.

Let's start with the fact that you sense intuitively that the CS Slingshot is a good methodology for boosting your research, and explore the thought process at arriving there (given the above notes about the academy)

Civil Service "unlocks" Bureaucracy, in the same way that Gun Powder renders walls obsolete. Same principle, different effect. GETTING to Civil Service by means of the fastest route possible would be: Writing, via Mysticism + Meditation + Priesthood (this is true, even if you could get to writing faster via Animal Husbandary or some other route BECAUSE it also unlocks the Oracle, which is important to the Slingshot).
That said, if you want to do it all, but you don't want to have to RESEARCH the daunting tech that is Civil Service, then the CS Slingshot is the answer to all of the above desires. Quick path to Writing for Lib + Academy. Pre-Requisite for Code of Laws, which is in turn, a pre-req for Civil Service, and the rest is a matter of timing.

Did that help, or just muddy the waters more?

-=Vel=-

**Quillan** · January 11, 2006, 15:28

I had to read this thread twice. At first, I thought you were asking someone to explain the CS slingshot to you. After rereading it, I realized exactly what you were asking. No, there is really no substitute for playing the game, though that's not all that is needed. To "see the big picture", as you put it, requires you to know and understand the game and the way all the various things work together. As you play, you learn things. Then, when you read something explaining a strategy, the knowledge you gained from playing provides the basis for your understanding of what the author is explaining.

The CS slingshot is fairly simple in concept. The tech Civil Service is what allows the Bureaucracy civic. Bureaucracy causes a +50% modifier to commerce and production in the capital. This is a major effect, but the Civil Service tech is EXPENSIVE! In fact, it's one of (if not the) most expensive techs of the early game. The Oracle gives you a free technology when you build it. If you can build the Oracle after you've got Code of Laws, then you will be able to select the (very expensive) tech Civil Service as the free tech. This means A) you don't have to spend 30+ turns researching it, and B) you can switch to Bureaucracy long before anyone else, giving you a huge research advantage.

Writing is a prerequisite for Code of Laws (IIRC), and CoL is a prereq for CS, so you have to get those. But the idea behind Vel's slingshot strategy is to get there fast, so your Bureaucracy advantage lasts longer and gives you more benefit.

What Vel just said and I just said may still be going over your head, but that's because you don't know the game well enough yet. As you come to learn it better, you know exactly what effects things have. Knowing those effects allows you to choose where you want to go first, because of what you need. Alone on an island? You won't be able to generate commerce by trade routes with other civs or trade techs with others, so you need to build as much internal commerce as you can. Knowing the tech tree lets you decide how to go about this. Discover your game has your capital 5 squares away from Monty's capital? Better head for bronze working fast, because you're destined for a war with the Aztecs. How do you gain a military advantage over him? You learn what techs to take for military.

Play the game, study the mechanics, read the threads here and ask questions. It will come to you as time passes. Take breaks, and think about things. What have you been doing in the game? What worked, and what didn't? Why did it work, or why not? All those things help in learning. A personal problem I seem to have is I get lost in the game and lose focus. If I play for a bit, then take a break, I find the free time lets me think things over and I know what to do when I start playing again. If I just keep playing, I lose track of the "grand strategy" with all the orders I'm giving and just kind of muddle along. So, I am now forcing myself to stop every so often and just look at the game situation for a while.

**guermantes** · January 11, 2006, 15:35

Did it help?!?! Jesus Vel, I have hardly ever read anything as pedagogical and replete with food-for-thought. I feel like the kid in that old MTV commercial sitting in the chair and being blown away by the TV. By golly, it's almost as if it has a literary quality to it as well.

You did not muddy my waters at all.

Thanks a trillion for your exemplary elucidation of the F9 summary screen and the examples of how to use the info I find there. I will copy your post to my harddrive just in case Apolyton suffers a disk crash, and I assure you that it will be my Bible for learning (and that is to say a lot since I'm not even religious).

I have understood from other posts that you are well respected in these fora and you certainly display here that you deserve it. Personally I think this thread could be sticky'd for all newbies to read as they come to this forum wanting to learn Civ4.

And thanks to you too Quillan! You add meat and resilience to my as of yet meagre bones, and I am glad to see that everything does not go over my head.

/p

**Velociryx** · January 11, 2006, 20:50

Thank you! And I'm glad it helped out! These kinds of threads are instructive for me as well, because I often play the game USING these thought processes, but never really spell them out or think through the underlying mechanisms like this until someone asks a question like yours. Then, I have to ask myself: "Okay, this is what you do...now WHY do you do it that way?"

And then, in answering your question, I learn more about the whys myself.

Good stuff, that.

-=Vel=-

**Dominae** · January 11, 2006, 23:12

Might I add:

Try different things with each game. Explore different paths and priorities through the tech tree.

It's easy to get locked in to a particular strategy that works for you, then get frustrated when it does not work in a novel context (like a higher difficulty).

Essentially this is "getting more information". Knowing what the future holds five or so techs deep, or what it could hold, is very important. But you never know what it holds if you do not go down that path at least once.

The Oracle Slingshot is good, but so is building a bunch of Horse Archers. Another point in the tech tree that offers a lot of choice is post-Liberalism.

Trying all the branches (and combinations of techs between them) will give you a "bigger picture" for your future games.

**Crossfire** · January 12, 2006, 13:08

Isn't this the best damn site ever?! Some of the people here give an amazing amount of themselves in answering with the level of detail they do. In addition, if you haven't already read them, Vel's strategy threads include more information than one person can handle. The OCC threads are exceptionally useful too because they emphasise exactly what it takes to maximize the output of a city. Read the Great Prophets(Profits) thread and then read every other thread ever written.

This game is so amazingly complex it takes a long time to get a good idea of everything you should consider. That's a good thing if you have the time and dedication to get thru it all because the game has a vast amount of replayability. What more could you ask for $40.

**dojoboy** · January 12, 2006, 14:22

Re: Learning to see the bigger picture

Originally posted by guermantes

At most I am capable of strategically choosing techs that enable desired tech choices in the future (such a gunpowder which I can understand the benefit of). But Vel's description of the CS Slingshot it's like rocket science to me.

Don't worry, you're right where the majority of us are. Vel is a talent, just like Reggie Bush, Vince Young, Peyton Manning, etc. Don't try it yourself. You could get hurt, just like if you tried running through a hole created by 300 lb. lineman that is going to close in 1.3 seconds. You and I would be crushed.

That said, patterns will develop over time. The important thing is to map out a tech pattern for the victory condition you've chosen. The map type will not only influence your victory choice but also the tech rate of the game.

**gingoblin** · January 12, 2006, 15:45

In addition to simply soaking in the remarkably good advice of Vel and others... take a look at how they go about becoming such [genius/nerd]s.

You will notice that in every thread where Vel posts about a game, there are several things he does that i think most of us neglect.

He pays close attention to the state of the game as a whole. Each decision for each city and unit is made in the context of how it affects his empire as a whole, and not so much about the immediate situation of that particular unit/city. It is very easy to get sucked into "good tactical decisions" that lead to very bad strategy.

He takes notes. I don't know if he does this as obsessively for his "for fun" games as for those he plans to write up here... but I'm sure that the process of formulating what you did and why into actual text is very helpful in maintaining sight of step 1 above )

He thinks ahead. Tactics is responding correctly to the situation at hand. Strategy is setting up the future so that the desired situation unfolds. You HAVE to guess and plan to be an effective strategist. This is where paying attention and taking notes comes in. You notice that Vel is always speculating about how things are going to be down the road. He envisions what he THINKS will happen, and what he WANTS to happen, and then figures out how to get the two to match up.

I suspect that that is the "secret" to his success.

Personally, I don't really do any of those things, and it shows ;-)

Don't try it yourself. You could get hurt

omg worst advice ever!

getting hurt is how we LERN
(well, those that CAN learn... some of us [me] don't really have that as a strong suit -- hehe)

One thing that seems to very useful for ppl is making a savegame just before some "key" decision, and playing through the different options with everything above in mind.

oh, and keep stroking the egos of folk like Vel and Dom so that they don't get tired of posting woderful info/speculation/advice like they do :-)

**guermantes** · January 12, 2006, 15:51

keeping the thread alive, regarding the tech tree:

Does any strategy involve 'branching' as opposed to 'pyramiding' [new verb invented by me], or do you tend to pick up most techs along the way in all strategies, the difference being where you are spearheading?

pyramiding: [picture the tree lying down] basically advancing in a V-shape pointing right, getting all techs but spearheading in some branch according to strategy.

/p

Gingoblin: good points! ('GinGoblet') could also be a nice alias...

**Crossfire** · January 12, 2006, 16:48

I'm sorry but I don't see where branching and pyramiding are good verbs for this use. I much prefer Vel's horizontal vs. vertical development. Horizontal development entails basically researching (or trading for) all techs at a certain level before moving to the next level/age. Vertical researching means reaching DEEP into a particular branch (ok, maybe this is what you meant) in order to either gain a bonus (free tech or GP) or to gain a tech edge to further your tech trading options. On the harder difficulties, I don't see how you could do well with a horizontal approach. It takes too long, and the AIs go vertical from time to time and trade techs with each other like mad, so you will never keep up. Beelining (the act of researching vertically for a particular tech) is one of the main ways I win this game and before learning to do it I never did do very well. Obviously there are other important aspects that you also need to learn, but when and what to beeline for is one of the key aspects of getting better, imho.

**guermantes** · January 12, 2006, 17:00

You're right, horizontal and vertical describes what I meant. Just that my Civ4 knowledge is not that tightly held together yet that I would see that for myself before formulating my question... :-)

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