Trading technology with AI - how to know what they have?

[VetLegion]

Is there any way to find out what technology the AI has? Apart from seing Grenadiers in their cities and concluding that they have Chemistry. Are there some hints? Is the list of tech AI has on the F4 screen complete?

Another thing: is there a rule that says I can give AI only tech it has the prerequisites for? Or does me not being able to offer some tech always mean just that the AI has the tech?

[Yuufo]

Use the foreign advisor (F4 or the "scroll" button on the top right-hand corner of the game screen).

Then click on "Technologies". Here are listed the different AIs you've encountered, along with the techs they have (and you don't). The upper line shows all your techs that the AIs are interested in. The other lines display the techs that the AIs are able/want to trade. If you know several foreign countries, clicking on the portrait of a leader in this screen reduces the number of techs in the upper line (it lists only the techs this leader wants).

But I find this advisor sometimes inaccurate: some techs are frequently forgotten in the upper line, even if the AI has all prereqs (like Education). The AI have paper, I have education, my city graphism is Renaissance, theirs is Middle Age, so... they don't have education!

I'm not always able to trade like I would!

There is indeed the rule that allows tech trade only if the AI has the minimal prerequisites.

[VetLegion]

There is indeed the rule that allows tech trade only if the AI has the minimal prerequisites.

OK, thanks for clarifying that. Some situations I had were quite confusing.

[Cort Haus]

The F4 is not a reliable indicator, according to some tests I did recently which may explain the confusion people are having.

On this thread I reported how you cannot trade a tech to an AI who is researching it. The moment they start researching it, it will disappear from the F4 as if they have already researched it.

This can make things difficult, as the AI can appear to have Railroad, for example, when they have only researched one beaker of Steam Power, and you wont get the chance to trade them either if they start RR immediately after getting Steam.

[VetLegion]

Thanks for the tip, that's interesting info too (and the phenomenon you describe probably added to my confusion).

[axi]

My problem with tech trades is that I usually can never get a beaker to beaker trade. I get a tech that costs 1000 beakers for a tech that costs 2000 and try to get whatever minor bonuses there are, like a world map or 50 gold. In some extreme case, I made them declare war to some other AI, just to have them both lose score by fighting.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by axi
My problem with tech trades is that I usually can never get a beaker to beaker trade. I get a tech that costs 1000 beakers for a tech that costs 2000 and try to get whatever minor bonuses there are, like a world map or 50 gold. In some extreme case, I made them declare war to some other AI, just to have them both lose score by fighting.

True, but in particular cases, you can trade the same tech to every other civ and end up with far more in total than the cost of your tech. Of course this does depend on every civ having something you want and being willing to trade it.

RJM at Sleeper's

[axi]

That's even worse, since you actually do multiple handouts.

Of course they could trade the tech between them, but don't know if they do. At least, if they do, they won't trade with everyone, due to bad relations. So it might be reasonable to sell your tech simulatneously to 2 civs that are friends with eachother, because they would swap it anyway. Come to think about it, they may not be able to do the trade due to prerequisites or lack of matching assets, pretty much the problem I have.

Does anybody here actually know how the AIs are trading tech between them? This info could be hiding in some thread out there...

[joncnunn]

On the F4 diplomacy screen, I don't really look at the top line; instead I look at the techs they have that I'm missing and how much gold they have.

Unless they have a tech I'm missing that they are willing to sell or else a large supply of gold, I'm not interested in trading a tech with them.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by axi
My problem with tech trades is that I usually can never get a beaker to beaker trade. I get a tech that costs 1000 beakers for a tech that costs 2000 and try to get whatever minor bonuses there are, like a world map or 50 gold. In some extreme case, I made them declare war to some other AI, just to have them both lose score by fighting.

Apart from an AI bonus that presumably increases up the levels, techs that are already owned by several civs get devalued. So 'older' tech loses value compared to newer tech.

Because the AI rarely has more than a couple of hundred gold, it's rare to be able to get 'change' from them - unless they've just lost out on a wonder.

Sometimes I'll run max gold for a turn or two trying to get my own 'top-up' gold, but I often find it takes almost as long to raise the 'top-up' cash as to research the damn thing myself.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by axi
Does anybody here actually know how the AIs are trading tech between them? This info could be hiding in some thread out there...

First, they allow a very generous margin when 'matching assets'. Also, it can sometimes be better to agree to a "gimme" demand from the AI to stop them trading.

Once I had a demand from Osaka to hand over Communism. I refused, and the same turn he traded Physics to another Civ for it. Had I yielded, I would have been better off. This annoyed me, as Communism is ~2/3 the Physics cost, and I wasn't allowed to buy Physics even for ~3/2 of its cost. I realise that communism was devalued, but not for the AI-AI trade, it seems.

So, on Monarch, it appears from that example that the AI will trade at up to roughly half the rate that a human must pay.

I believe they still hold back from each other if relations are bad though, or have earmarked a tech as no-trade.

[Footie Mad]

I often trade with a margin of about 100 beakers, if you give the AI a small win on the trade they often agree. But it also depends on what leader it is and their relation to you. Some leaders are very hard to trade techs with, while others are more lenient.

This is on monarch.

[Dominae]

Footie Mad, it might be better to set a percentage margin instead of a hard number (like 100 Beakers). That's how the AI operates. This way, once techs start getting expensive, you will not mind so much that the AI will only accept "ridiculous" deals. 10% of 1000 is 100 Beakers, but also 500/5000.

I'm not sure what the exact percentages are, but it can go quite high (30% or so).

As Cort Haus mentions, the question to ask yourself when trading with the AI is: "Would I be better off with this tech, despite the bad deal the AI is giving me?" There's no use in being obtuse against an AI that will not budge. Any trade, even an "unfair" one, is an advantage in relation to all the other civs not participating in the trade.

Typically you can put the techs to use better than the AI can. If a trade, even a "bad" one, gets you to Military Tradition that much faster, you'll probably end up ahead in the long run.

[joncnunn]

As far as I can tell, an AI will buy a tech for cash no matter how poor the relations are. It's just that if relations are poor they aren't willing to hand over either a WM nor one of their techs, and they usally don't have enough cash on hand even for deals with another AI.

Domaine, on some late industrial and early modern techs at Prince level I've seen the AI want a 50% mark up at monopoly even if your tech is also a monopoly; it appears the monopoly premium only applies to the tech the AI is selling to the human and not the tech the human is offering. And this is with very good relations. (Around +10)

This is the sort of thing that results in me reseraching the tech myself because they don't have enough cash for me to include two techs.