Cultural Victory: Discussing the basics

[mdbill]

I've just won a Diety Cultural victory!

Standard size, speed, everything, no cheating. Here are some of the highlights.

Played India on Islands. Islands slow down the AI so they don't start a spaceship before 1300AD. I won in 1943.

I picked up 3 religions. Hinduism, Confucian, Christianity.
These were all in the path of the Parthenon, Oracle, Sistine Chapel. Parthenon and Chapel are a must for me because of the 10 culture each (eventually 20 each) and more importantly the +2 Great Artist rate increase on each. I used the Oracle to get Code of Laws/Confucian, then I wasted a Great Prophet to research half of Christianity. Caste System can be nice (another reason to get Code of Laws), but I'd probably pass CoL up if I could get the Oracle slingshot to hit Christianity. That is hard to do on Diety.

I picked up up Stonehenge, but not Pyramids. I think I'll skip the Henge next time. Too many great Prophets. I only got 6 Great Artists. I did not get any other World Wonders...just the 4 I mentioned.

I had only 6 citys. 4 cities for most of the game, but then I wanted a few more Cathedrals. I get 6 total cathedrals with 3 religions in my case.

I never run a state religion (i.e. no Pacifism) Religion causes wars and I can't fight at the Diety level. On Islands, anyone can sail up to your shore, you can't hide behind a brother/sister of the faith. I just use Free Religion.

After Liberalism and Nationalism, I should have stopped research and gone 100% culture, but I went on to Military tradition, gunpowder and a few more techs to hopefully scare off warmongers.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

didn't get this bit

AI so they don't start a spaceship before 1300AD. I won in 1943.

well done otherwise

[mdbill]

I tried Diety on a non-Island map. The AI grew so fast it completed the Apollo program before 1300 AD. So I played on islands to slow them down.

I was able to win in 1943 when two of the AI's had only 2 spaceship parts to build yet.

[gentle]

Originally posted by mdbill
I've just won a Diety Cultural victory!

*applause*

Oracle slinghot to Christianity sounds nice, btw.

---
GP and Specialist improvement reference by common sensai

[OneFootInTheGrave]

well another culture win, this time quite a bit better.

Once I have reached liberalism, nationalism I still went forward to get to democracy.

Switched to Universal Sufferage & Emancipation to hurry the shrines , grow hamlets, and few culture buildings in my cities, and after 1560~ I did two different finishes.

The first was was the further push for science and getting to radio to create eiffel tower.

I have bought the eiffel tower when I came to it, switched to 100%, even had a city producting 1000 culture towards the end, but only finished in 1876... the science push cost is too much.

When going full speed culture (almost) in 1560, 80% culture 20% science, still buying the buildings as fast as possible I had a 30 years earlier finish in 1842 (not even researched Physics)...

During this game I made no preferences for culture early, only after I discovered liberalism, and I had a whole lot of great prophets (more than a half of 30 GP) one great engineer, and maybe 10 great artists. Anyhow the great prophets seem to be irreplacable as you can always use the shields and the money to boost your economy which are essential to get to desired sciences first, and to develop your designated cities as you need to. The science push combo was representation, caste system and mercantilism combination... for max science when at 100% culture. The other government used was mentioned above (Universal Sufferage & Emancipation + free market) while still buying essential culture buildings.

From this game it seems that great prophets are very desireable during the early/mid game, engineers are always welcome as they give you a big boost witht the wonder rush. Even merchants are good, if you make a voyage and get 1700 gold for one of them you can buy quite a bit for all that.

The only slightly annoying thing is the cities assigning specialist by themselves and usually priests, which screwed me towards the end, as I could have 2 more great artists and finish a few turns earlier, but I doubt that I could have finished before 1800's in this game. This is my next goal :-)

Just to mention that I didn't have a war, which I think is essential for early victory of this type... this is all on noble, played with early worker chop rush, and I got 5 religions in total... 2/3 of the early ones. I was again Saladin, and the science was.

Polytheism,
Mining,
Bronze,
Masonery
Monotheism...

I think this is the best first 5 science start for culture win as well.

[gentle]

Once I have reached liberalism, nationalism I still went forward to get to democracy.

naughty little boy ... no pyramids

When going full speed culture (almost) in 1560, 80% culture 20% science, still buying the buildings as fast as possible I had a 30 years earlier finish in 1842 (not even researched Physics)...

Interesting that the "science push" finished slower.
Was thinking about the necessity of research til Radio for some time, but (still) havent made up my mind.

but I doubt that I could have finished before 1800's in this game. This is my next goal :-)

Thats the spirit *cheer*

Quite nice to see someone trying to do so. I have absolutely no time at the moment and miss the oppurtunity to play.
I am thinking about some stuff atm (without being able to test it).
-For my deity games I still need to redesign my GP tech donations to grab Philo via them (not the oracle).
-Also, I am close to giving Mao a second chance due to the heavy initial upkeep non-ORGs have in the beginning (deity), though this would mean to also ponder the research path again, and check how games without mysticism/ without Hindu,Budh,Juadism are to be played.
Might lead to a different approach concerning tech path to Writing and Paper (and therefore another GP tech donation plan that has to be designed *sigh*)

Anyway....GOGOGO ^^

[uberfish]

Demo/corporation/military tradition is about as far as is worth going IMO once you're committed to the cultural win. (Maybe even this is going too far as my best finish is 1926 with random civ Incas and a CS slingshot opener on Emperor, but the extra trade routes from corporation help out coastal cities significantly.)

I think radio is definitely not worth researching, as you have to go through too many expensive techs to get there and then usually won't have the production in your culture cities to build wonders in any reasonable time. You could rush them, but that's gold or engineers which are taking away from your culture production too.

[maxcavsm]

Do NOT! research or have available until Liberalism:
-Pottery
-Fishing
-Construction
*****

Wha? Why?
And how in the holy hell are people pumping out 8 GPs before 1AD? I just had my first one at 160 AD.

I'm fairly new to the game, but cultural victory seems the hardest wins of all of them, and I like the challenge.

Playing on Noble as Saladin. Have three religions founded. Didn't plan properly and my Oracle popped too soon, and I ended up taking Literature.

Maybe there's some tricks to the early game that I'm just not privy to. Thanks.

[gentle]

Originally posted by maxcavsm
Do NOT! research or have available until Liberalism:
-Pottery
-Fishing
-Construction
*****

Wha? Why?
And how in the holy hell are people pumping out 8 GPs before 1AD? I just had my first one at 160 AD.

I'm fairly new to the game, but cultural victory seems the hardest wins of all of them, and I like the challenge.

Playing on Noble as Saladin. Have three religions founded. Didn't plan properly and my Oracle popped too soon, and I ended up taking Literature.

Maybe there's some tricks to the early game that I'm just not privy to. Thanks.

If you discovered pottery,fishing or construction the GP wouldnt give Liberalism. He values sailing,metal casting and engineering (optics then etc) as more important than liberalism ^^

Well, lots of GPs.....it is important to generate GP points early on, so the sooner a wonder is built the better. This means that Stonehenge is pretty good. Saladin also starts with Mysticism (which is needed for Stonehenge).Most important wonder though is Great Library I would say.
Also, try to build the wonders in 1 city.
Then multipliers can be added. PHI trait, Pacifism, National Epic, for example.
For that purpose Oracle should grab Philosophy (at least on noble).
Also keep in mind that 8 GP is a number for Noble difficulty. On deity it dropped to 6 (at least fo me).

I dont know if there are some tricks in the early game...I go worker first and chop a lot, thats it^^.
Maybe if one is lucky a gold resource can be flagged too.
Gold is an excellent resource in the beginning.
Also, organized religion is quite handy before pacifism is available.
Oh..and micro a lot I want to add.

btw, welcome to the thread ^^

[maxcavsm]

Der. I guess that putting all of the GP +modifiers all in the same city would help.

My early game seems to consist of my first city pushing out a settler (which takes bloody forever), waiting until that's built, and then taking a stab at the Parthenon. What is the big deal with the Stonehenge? Okay, yeah, it puts an obelisk in each city...whoopee. It also goes away after it becomes obsolete. I've been going with the Parthenon, as it seems more relevant to cultural victory than that or the Pyramids.

Of course, I'm probably totally wrong. I just hate to try putting together a building if I think that someone's going to beat me to it.

Anyway, having a much better go of it this time around; too bad my second "culture" city is one of the biggest dud cities I've ever founded. We're in 1100, and it's got a whopping 4 population. Now that I have Civil Service, I can get some farms over there. I would have picked a different city, but between it founding a religion, having built the religion's wonder there, with a few more lesser wonders built there, it's a little late to try starting over. With liberalism, it's pushing out 150 culture a turn, so I guess it'll have to do.

Well, thanks for the info, and I'll give that a try later.

[gentle]

What is the big deal with the Stonehenge? Okay, yeah, it puts an obelisk in each city...whoopee

*g* ...wel, thats exactly NOT the point. i would build stonehenge even if it had no effect at all. BUT it starts generating GP points. It costs only 120 Hammers (instead of 450). If one goes for it one can expect to have it up ~2800BC. If one really goes for it -like: worker then chop stonehenge instead of settler- it can even be pre 3000BC.
Without any modifiers or another GP source (except PHI trait) that means only 25 turns til first GP (4/100).

I've been going with the Parthenon, as it seems more relevant to cultural victory than that or the Pyramids.

Actually, Parthenon is last on my list. +50% GP...of what source? It just takes too long to build. 450 vs 120 hammers definetely is a difference.

I more or less agree with Pyramids though.I would do anything to build it, because it provides me with representation but much more important, it gives me the chance of generating Great Engineers.Ideal would be a Great Engineer for the Great Library. After that the stage is set for scientists.

Add Great Library and my "must have" list is complete.
Rest is only "eye candy" ^^

So , in short.....stonehenge to get GP prod running, Pyramids splashes in the possibility of engineers to appear and the great library then generates insane science and gp points.
Of course National epic is a project too, but nobody can steal it, cause it is a national wonder....sweet^^.
This might arise the question:
Parthenon vs Epic.
[x] Epic (imho)

(both would be nice too, but let us not be too optimistic^^. Epic just is faster...faster to build, faster at generating GPs)
*scared...this could lead to a "math attack" by blake =P *

[maxcavsm]

Well, Gentle, I guess that covers all my questions! Thanks for fielding them so quickly!

[Aeson]

I like the Parthenon for Cultural victories, along with all the other Artist Wonders available before victory. I generally dislike the Merchant, Scientist, and Prophet Wonders, at least in the GP pump cities, as they can mess up the Great Artist spam.

As for Pottery, I think it's best to grab it early and get those Cottages online. Taking specific techs with GP is nice, but getting those techs fast anyways with enough Cottages, then having the Cottages further developed for the rest of the game, is more important I think. That way you can put more GP into the Artist column too.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

well another game and two different endings

this time I split the game in two around 1150...

the first part of the game (before the split) was on a continent with the Romans. Given that I had access to Iron, this was a swordsman chop rush and Romans crushed... first part of the story, and than development.

Stonehenge was chop rushed too and I managed to get 1/3 early religions, because of the war, built Pyramids and Parthenon as well (don't forget I am only playing noble level ) In total I managed to snap up 4 religions.

So this has put me on a decent setting to go on and win.

At 1150 I made two distinct games the first one I stayed with 6 cities only, and in the second one I went to produce three more cities to be able to build all the shrines. At the time I was on the way to discover Liberalism already - I was on discovering Paper already.

And well surisingly I finished earlier with six cities than with nine?!?... 6 cities 1832, 9 cities 1842...

However I will put that down to more favourable split of GP that were produced in the later stages with 6 cities.

With 6 cities I possibly got one or two GA more, but more importantly instead of GP's I got 2 GM's which did net me almost 4k when I made great missions, and enabled me to go on a spending spree and move the slider to 100% culture earlier than in the second "9 cities" finish where I had to fairly earn all the $ to rush the culture buildings.

So despite the later finish I'd say that 9 cities would beat 6 (perhaps even allowed me to finish in 1700's ) if I got lucky with great people after 1150.. be as it were this finish only got one or two GA's and that is the risk with the "normal" non GA pushing game from the start. It is very fast to get to Liberalism, but later on you get all sorts of great people, despite GA's being at more than 50% in the great people generating cities. I guess that is the "risk" involved when you build all the wonders you can manage in your cities.

I'd say that I will have to pay more attention to which wonders finish where as I build them.

The city with Great Library have 6 Artist specialist and despite of that in the first game produced (luckily I might add, as they were only 10% chance) 2 great merchants among others, but in the second game mostly continued to produces great scientists of which only three are good to get during the game, but I got at least 6 or even more in total, out of them all. I think it would be good to see what was the spread.

To top it off, finishing in 1700's seems to be quite a challenge with culture victory as the turns are moving by 5 years, so there are not too many turns to finish in all the cities, perhaps I woud need to capture more religions on the way to get to sub 1800's. I am sure it is doable, so we will see ... this was still far from optimal game. The very end is quite polished by now, but the whole early to mid game flow could be much better I'd say.

[gentle]

ok, I am sort of impressed. 1700's victory would definetely get a "thumbs up" from me =P

this weekend i just have(!) to play a bit ^^ then i can join again with some game details.

--
wondering if 3 cities would be enough. whats the point of more than 3 cities ?
hmm...should go to bed now