AI spawning troops

[Jamski]

The AI also drafts like crazy.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by MightyTiny

By the way, with the patch, there came a "no cheating" option in the custom games - I wonder if checking this means that the AI's also have to play with the same rules?

No, this affects the World Builder. It stops you from changing the map and stuff like that by removing that option from the menu.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Think about it - Civ is a thousand times more complicated than chess. Think map size, tile types, unit types, and then the hundred things that a chess AI doesn't have to think about that the Civ AI must.

I am not so sure about that. Just because a game has fewer rules doesn't always mean it's less complicated. Think Go. Two sets of stones, every piece is identical. Three rules. Yet it is debatably the most complex game there is.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by TheHateMale
For AI, could there be an (optional) time to plan strategies? I.E. every five/ten/whatever turns the AI turn would take about (an additional) 10 minutes, but they could plan strategies for the next set of turns.

It can do that while you are moving.

[MightyTiny]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


I am not so sure about that. Just because a game has fewer rules doesn't always mean it's less complicated. Think Go. Two sets of stones, every piece is identical. Three rules. Yet it is debatably the most complex game there is.

True - however, the correct question here to think about would be "what makes a game difficult for an AI to manage?", in other words, what sorts of things make a game difficult to make an AI to play well?

The answer is that from an AI-point of view, games that are relatively simple for AI to master are games where, at each given moment, you have a very limited set of actions you could take within the game rules. Chess is such a game - the number of possible moves on a board in any given position is manageable. Because of the calculation power of a computer, AI's are good for games where there's advantage to deep calculations, and a limited number of well defined moves to chose from at any given time.

A game like Go is difficult for AI's, simply because while the rules are few in number, the board is relatively big, and the possible moves at each time istant are numerous - you have many possible moves to chose from.

The difficulty for an AI is in PRUNING the completely silly moves out of the set of all possible moves; in other words, in knowing which moves are worth considering further. If you have a thousand different things on each move that you could do, with no obvious way to calculate their "value" exactly, then no ammount of calculation power will help you if you can't quickly, and correctly sort out the smalller number of potential good moves worth thinking about from the large set of absurd or "obviously" poor moves.

So computers tend to be good at NARROW and DEEP problems, where there is a need to calculate far ahead, but a relatively small number of choises to chose from at each point in time, while humans are the other way around; limited ability to calculate far ahead, but SUPREME ability to instantly select potentially good moves out of a wide set of possible moves.

That is why good game AI for strategy games like Civ4 tends to be difficult to make; when at each move you have innumerable things you could do, and there's an element of randomness that makes deep, exact, calculations less important, then the computer is in trouble.

A human can obviously know that it's not wise to attack that big state that has just discovered flight, and has radio, and you don't have either yet - even if you currently have a larger army. A human makes these kinds of conclusions almost instinctively, and instantly, and there are innumerable smaller decisions with long term implications and a lot of contingencies, that a human can handle without much trouble. A computer, on the other hand, will have trouble even deciding WHICH of the possible cources of action should they start thinking about, and which it should dismiss outright.

[Enigma_Nova]

I report enemy cities spawning Warriors in their bases on Noble, about 4 turns into the game - but they might have just build them with a bonus to production. (My own Quecha took 8 turns to make)

/Yes, I know Bismarck doesn't have Quecha.
//Huyana Capac is great for 18 civ duel pangaea games
///slashie slashie

[TheHateMale]

Hasn't that been reported as necessary to avoid an exploit of taking out a city at the very beginning of the game and doubling your starting production?

I think someone said it was a problem fixed during beta testing.

[Wildcat]

I have been busy, so have not had time to replay the saves to repeat the AI troop spawning. But I don't think this is necessary as I received begrudging confirmation from 2k that this is a known issue for game balancing.

Maybe a couple more patches working out their memory problems and they might start to work on the AI and playability.

[xxFlukexx]

Enigma_Nova: not playing Civ4 atm but I believe that the AI gets free hammers at the start of the game, 10 free hamers is about a warrior about 4 turns into the game.

Wildcat: Errrr, where? I haven't noticed the AI receiving units out of thin air. I have seen the AI use slavery a lot to rush troops on a city in danger and the AI upgrade and move troops to protect an endagered city. Post the link to where 2k said that. Still waiting on this proof you have. I'd like to know if the AI pops units out of thin air but since I've never seen it do this ever I am very skeptical.

[Wildcat]

Originally posted by xxFlukexx

Wildcat: Errrr, where? I haven't noticed the AI receiving units out of thin air. I have seen the AI use slavery a lot to rush troops on a city in danger and the AI upgrade and move troops to protect an endagered city. Post the link to where 2k said that. Still waiting on this proof you have. I'd like to know if the AI pops units out of thin air but since I've never seen it do this ever I am very skeptical.

Like I care if your sceptical. I just posted my personal observation of the AI and the confirmation from their customer support. If you do not notice the AI troop cheat or it does not bother you, Bully for you.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Wildcat
Like I care if your sceptical. I just posted my personal observation of the AI and the confirmation from their customer support.

Where did that last bit come from?

[Wildcat]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Where did that last bit come from?

If you are referring to the confirmation from 2k, It came from a Tech call for late game CTD's and a response to "Oh by the way I have noticed that the AI can produce extra troops without actually building them" and then a description of what I witnessed in game. If you are referring to my snaky comment, I'm sorry, I'm a little ticked that this game reached market in its current condition and I might be a little testy.

[apingaut]

About the AI quality:

Someone said " Because of the calculation power of a computer, AI's are good for games where there's advantage to deep calculations, and a limited number of well defined moves to chose from at any given time."

I'd like to second that, that is exactly the problem.

Also imagine you were playing and see this massage "Please Note: The Napoleon-AI has just reloaded the game 10 turns earlier to try a different strategy"


And this happening the ammount of opponent civilizations as often as you reload yourself ....
I think its a funny thing to imagine. It is also a serious argument. It is one of the unchangable reasons the AI will never be on human level.

PS
I dont like the AI spawning units at all. I would much prefer a less balanced game. Cheating sucks.

[Mandla]

I can only speak for myself but I never reload games just to try a different strategy. Where's the satisfaction in beating the AI if you only managed it by cheating?

[TheHateMale]

It's helpful when you're learning - having to play several hours repeatedly to learn how best to use a modern navy would be a steep learning curve.

Either that or people can't stand losing. You can tell these people because their copy of Minesweeper is set to 'Custom: 80 * 50 with 3 mines'.