Early Wonders Overrated

[Wild Pig UK]

My last few games on emperor, I have decided to completely forego all of the early wonders (and most of the wonders in general). I'm using monarchy to get my happy faces, and the time I'd normally spend building wonders I use to pump out units. This strategy seems to work pretty well, as I have been able to get Caesar rating with a domination victory consistently.

If you use the units you build instead of wonders properly, you can grab enough land from the AI to up your resources and get similar results to the wonders. Moreover, building units early and skipping wonders mitigates the barbarian problem on higher levels. Strategies such as CS Slingshot seem to pale in comparison to grabbing enough land for 6-8 cities with Cathy, and then peppering them with cottages to offset the maintenance/hurry my way to courthouses.

I'm wondering if anyone else has used a similar strategy on the higher levels with any success?

[Stageon]

I've tried a no-wonder approach before and had moderate success. Your idea sounds good. I'd think it would matter how many opponents you had... if the wonders get spread out to multiple enemies it's not so bad. If they all go to the same civ or two that's a different story.

[Blake]

Indeed. It is my experience that early wonders aren't worth it, and Industrial is a generally weak trait at higher difficulties.

Another factor is researching tech for wonders tends to set you back in other areas.

[Chemical Ollie]

I really like pyramids to be able to cash-rush buildings and units without sacrificing population. The other wonders are less important unless you're after a cultural win.

[Urban Ranger]

Pyramids is excellent, though.

[johnmcd]

Early expansion is so crippling on the economy I tend to just go for the wonders. Also, it's more civilised to do that.

[Stageon]

I do go for pyramids esp. with stone.

[Caligula 37 AD]

The Great Lighthouse is a good cash-cow. It only goes better as the difficulty increases as there will be more good foreign trade partners.

It also lasts enough turns to be worth it, but I don't think it is worth postponing Corporation for a long time.

Not worth anything for inland cities, so build coastal if you build GL. Even more so if you are financial. In fact the Great Light needs a strategy to work, but it will if you are willing.

- Cal

[gentle]

I agree with Blake that Industrial is a weak trait in higher diffs.
I still regard Pyramids and GreatLibrary as very good wonders though, no matter what difficulty.

[Aginor]

Assuming that by "early wonders" we mean "the stuff before the Great Library", I would give the thread thesis qualified agreement.

At higher levels:

1) You're not going to get more than one early wonder. Stonehenge/Oracle/Great Lighthouse - pick one and only one IF it fits into your overall start and strat. I would suggest that you stay away from Stonehenge unless you intend to conquer like a maniac before Calendar - having a (comparative) ton of cities before 1 AD is the only way to get your money's worth out of it. I would suggest that you stay away from Oracle at the higher levels unless you have an amazing commerce start and you are certain you can get away with Farseer or Slingshot, as otherwise you aren't going to get your money's worth. I would suggest that you stay away from the Lighthouse if your capital is not coastal, as if it is inland it is unlikely that you are going to have sufficient coastal cities to power it properly.

Remember, every early Wonder you get increases competition for the remaining ones (since there aren't any others to build. So long as you remain in a tech parity situation, this early-game axiom will continue to hold true the further you move into the game.

Worse, building lots of early wonders = few units = you get attacked by everyone wholesale. Especially on the higher levels where the AIs have three to four times your army if you focus on Wonders.

2) You're not going to get the Pyramids without crippling your early production (which is fine on lower levels of difficulty, but is a problem on higher levels). I suggest you avoid it unless you can spam-chop it with Stone (and preferably Industrious) as your sole early Wonder, and in addition your overall game strategy *requires* Representation or Suffrage long before it can be researched. "Nice to have" isn't sufficient...your game strategy has to revolve around the Pyramids if you're going to forego 15 Axemen for it.

Agree with Blake that Industrious is weak at higher levels of difficulty...Forges are not *that* helpful early on, and the lack of things to build with the assistance of your civ trait is crippling.

The reason the Great Library is strong (and stronger than the Hanging Gardens) is that it generates GPP and research without the requirement of food support. An extra person that has to work the land (Hanging Gardens) is not that useful...an extra person that does not require support is (which is why GPP strats became popular). *If* you go up the Alphabet side of the tech tree early to fill in tech gaps, this should be a no-brainer.

None of the Wonders are *that* important, and all are well-balanced relative to the costs. If you haven't got a compelling reason to build one, it generally isn't worth the price.

[Velociryx]

I rarely build any wonders before the G-Lib. If I do, Oracle is pound-for-pound the best of the bunch IMO (Pyramids are better in terms of aggregate effect, but also vastly more expensive), in that it's the only ancient era wonder that allows you to "morph" hammers to beakers. Even if you grab a relatively cheaper tech as the freebie, you're still that much ahead, so I would log it as a fairly important boon in that regard (no strategy will be harmed by having "too much" tech).

Agree re: Industrous as well. I like it, but it's definitely not top tier.

-=Vel=-

[Blake]

Yeah, like others have hinted at I tend to plan my wonders around the resource i have. If I have stone I'll probably get at least one of Stonehenge and Pyramids, and prehaps Angkor Wok or Hanging Gardens. If I have Marble I'll definitely grab Oracle and make GLib a priority, since the two nat wonders on Literature are also boosted by Marble.

Without marble or stone though I tend to just head off to Construction then Civil Service.

If I found a religion for soem reason (ie India, or high commerce start) then I will get either Oracle or Henge for the Great Prophet, in most cases it'll be Oracle.

[xxFlukexx]

I would even go a step further, Wonders in the middle of the game are overrated too. For early wonders I like the Oracle, Pyramids and the Great Lighthouse if you have a lot of coastal cities. Other than that, I can easily live without any wonders at all. As for middle wonders G-Lib is good, but sometimes built in the B.C.s or early A.D.s by the AI on Emperor+. Notre Dame, Sistine chapel, Colossus, Angkor Wat, and others just aren't that useful. I even think the Spiral Minaret is overrated, it is nice, but the cash is spread out over all your cities, bleh.

[Dominae]

I have to disagree that Industrious and cheap Forges are not valuable at the top levels.

The AI does not prioritize Metal Casting as much as it should, so Forges are the best peaceful means of evening out the production disparity. I cannot say enough about Forges - if you venture beyond Alphabet or Monarchy without Metal Casting you are either playing an easy game or are bound for trouble.

The Emperor/Immortal AI really comes into its own around the Medieval era. After its initial land grab it slows down a bit until, but once things start to stabilize its a very tough nut to crack. If are you short on land area you have to make your more very quickly, else you will be facing Knights and Muskets which is not a cost-effective proposition. Your best options are either an early rush focus with only a couple of cities (typically, with Horse Archers), or a more decisive attack a bit later. Cheap Forges are a big help in advancing your agenda in this second scenario, ultimately allowing you to conquer a less-prepared AI. Cheap Forges also allows coastal or low-production cities to build much-needed infrastructure faster.

The Industrious Wonder bonus is not as spectacular as on the lower levels, but still a very nice thing to have. Sometimes there's just a couple of Wonders that fit your strategy perfectly, and Industrious represents your only chance to get them. Without Industrious I find I have to place too much time and effort on my Wonders, so I just pick up the ones I can get. With Industrious, I can actually pick and choose. A Wonder-supported strategy can be very powerful: Great Library in the super-Science city, Oracle slingshot, Parthenon land denial, Pyramids for Great Engineer popping, etc.

[cal_01]

Originally posted by Blake
Yeah, like others have hinted at I tend to plan my wonders around the resource i have. If I have stone I'll probably get at least one of Stonehenge and Pyramids, and prehaps Angkor Wok or Hanging Gardens. If I have Marble I'll definitely grab Oracle and make GLib a priority, since the two nat wonders on Literature are also boosted by Marble.

Without marble or stone though I tend to just head off to Construction then Civil Service.

If I found a religion for soem reason (ie India, or high commerce start) then I will get either Oracle or Henge for the Great Prophet, in most cases it'll be Oracle.

Isn't Oracle with stone, Blake?

Anyhow, I try to get Stonehenge/Oracle no matter what my resources are simply because they're cheap and I have nothing better to do once I finished expanding and am working on my beeline.

Speaking of which, an early Stonehenge/Oracle typically nets you an early Great Prophet if you're heading towards CoL. I once got a Prophet to grant me Civil Service, but I don't know how that happened.