axeman are too powerful

[Tau]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

I quite agree. Swordsmen should have been the anti-melee unit.

The way I see it, a workable solution would be for swords and axes to swap their stats and abilities, then make axes a little less stronger and a lot cheaper. They'd be your rank-and-file city sackers, which would be true to their historical use.

Moreover, this would make barbarians less of a threat in the field and still remain 'orrible if they get to attack your cities. Barbs love their axemen (at least in my games).

[Last Conformist]

I think cheaper and stronger would be too much, but otherwise I like the idea.

Oh, and someone teach the AI to use anti-melee units to defend cities.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Shaka II


My axemen, after taking your capital, return home to find your axemen pillaging in the Eastern Townships. Luckily, they have just been awarded combat II promotions, and are looking forward to a chance to flex their new muscles.

Sorry, those axemen that returned to your empire were actually my other axemen dressed in your civ's clothes. Your axemen met an untimely demise, alas.

[player1]

I thionk axe melee bonus was supposed to represent armor piercering capabilities of such troops.

Macemen (flailman), are pretty much same thing.

And bonus against cities that swordsmen get was there to represent them being superior in city close quaters fighting.

[player1]

Anyway, for city defense spear + axe combo is just best (kill all good attackers).

And best attacking countermesure against that combo is also axemen.


The reason game still seems balanced at first glance is that AI prefers using archers a lot, thus making Swordsmen viable.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by player1
Anyway, for city defense spear + axe combo is just best (kill all good attackers).

And best attacking countermesure against that combo is also axemen.

Well, it's Cats and Axemen.

[Enigma_Nova]

I guess that means it's time for an early Machinery rush again.

[player1]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

Well, it's Cats and Axemen.

True...

[player1]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
I guess that means it's time for an early Machinery rush again.

Crossbows are interesting.
To counter them, you need longbows or crossbows (with cats).
Or knights, but then defeder could have pikes.
So many possibilities....

[Dr Strangelove]

I think that the mace is over-rated. Does anyone know of a military unti that was primarily equipped with them. AFAIK they were mostly used by knights as an alternative to the sword and the lance. A guy riding through your ranks swinging a spiked mace would be very disconcerting indeed - untill someone remembered to stick a spear up his horse's a**. I don't think that the mace was a practical weapon for mass use. Infantry fought in close ranks. There wasn't any room to swing a mace. Anyway, whille a maceman is raising his mace up to strike, what's to prevent his sword wielding opponent from making a quick stabbing strike? Axes have a similar liability - they're not suitable for close ordered fighting. A unit which has to spread itself out to make room for guys swinging axes or maces is going to find itself overrun by a tightly packed group of spear / pike men or swordsmen. When the axe men or macemen spread out to go into action they'll find the there are 2 or 3 swordsmen or spearmen facing each of them. The first time they swing thei weapon to deflect a sword or spear they'll find themselves bleeding from the sides as onf of the opponent's comrades has just stuck him.

[DrSpike]

This is a game balance discussion. Take it to OT please.

[Badtz Maru]

Part of the problem with the macemen in Civ4 is their graphic is a soldier on foot holding a horseman's flail. Maces were used a lot, but those aren't maces in the game.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Sorry, those axemen that returned to your empire were actually my other axemen dressed in your civ's clothes. Your axemen met an untimely demise, alas.

You might appreciate this story from one of my Scottish lineages. A story of love, treachery, and revenge.


A Clan Gunn Archer

THE FEUD BETWEEN THE GUNNS AND KEITHS

Early in the 15th century, Lachlan Gunn of Braemore had an only daughter named Helen who was known as "The Beauty of Braemore." She was to be wed to her cousin, Alexander Gunn, whom she had known since childhood and the wedding date was set.

Dugald Keith of Ackergill, factor of the district, saw Helen one day as he was passing through Braemore. He was smitten by her beauty and made some crude advances which were indignantly rejected.

On the night before the wedding, the Gunns were gathered in Braemore for a celebration. Dugald Keith and his retainers came upon them, and, taking the Gunns totally by surprise, slaughtered many of the wedding party and made off with sweet Helen. He took her to his castle in Ackergill where she "Became the victim of the brutal and licentious Keith."

Knowing there was no escape, Helen asked her keeper one day to allow her to go to the top of the castle tower so she could look out upon the land. The keeper granted her request knowing that she could not flee. She was left alone in the tower, and, in her misery, she determined to end her life, threw herself headlong from the Battlements.

This incident led to the feud between the Gunns and the Keiths, which saw many skirmishes and battles. The most famous of them is known as the "Battle of St. Tears."

Many Gunns and Keiths had perished in the conflicts that followed the abduction of Helen. George Gunn the Crowner, chief of the Clan, attempted to settle the matter once and for all. He invited the Keiths to meet him at the Chapel of St. Tears. Each party was to come to the meeting place with 12 men chosen for their skill in battle. The Crowner took his sons and a few other kisnmen to the number of 12. The Gunns arrived first and went into the chapel to pray and await the arrival of their enemies. When the Keiths arrived on 12 horses, their treachery was discovered, for they came two men to a horse. They fell on the Gunns at their prayer. The Gunns fought valiantly and killed many of the deceitful Keiths, but they were outnumbered 2 to 1 and soon had to retreat leaving 7 of their Kinsmen dead before the altar. Among them was their chief, George the Crowner, Am Braistich mor, the Big Brooched One.

The remaining five Gunns found safe hiding in a Glen near a stream in upper Strathnaver, where they dressed their wounds and determined to seek revenge that very night. They could not abide that the Keiths now had possession of their father's sword, chain mail, helmet, and the large brooch which had been a gift from the King and symbol of his office.

After resting for awhile, they followed the Keiths to the castle of Dirlot, high on a rock. In the dark of night, an old woman of the district showed the Crowner's remaining five sons the only path up the rock to the base of the castle. As they crept near, they noticed that the shutters to the archers' apertures were open. Peering in, they saw the Keiths in great celebration quaffing bumpers of ale. Henry, 3rd son of the Crowner, drew back on his bow and let fly an arrow which found its mark in the throat of the chief of Clan Keith. As he did so, he shouted in Gaelic, Iomcharagnn Guinach gu Cadhaich," which translates to, "A Gunn's compliments to a Keith."

Great confusion followed. The remaining Keiths came charging out the castle gate to seek revenge, but the other sons of the Crowner were ready for them and slew many of the Keiths as they emerged into the darkness. The Crowner's sons then made their escape. It is not known whether they recovered their father's possessions before they made away. By some accounts they did, although they have never been found.

http://members.aol.com/Heather130/gunn.html

[Yosho]

Originally posted by TheHateMale
Good point there. Why would axemen get defensive bonuses from walls? They still fight hand-to-hand (unless they're hurling axes... that would be awesome to watch) whereas archers can attack relatively safely from behind the wall.

You climb the ladder up the side of the castle. You have to get up to the top of the wall quickly, before the defenders notice your surprise attack. To your left and your right, you see your allies falling to their deaths, but you manage to get up to the top of the ladder...you climb up the top rung, look up, and see a giant man with an axe looking down at you, grinning. He swings the axe down at your head...

Yeah, being behind a wall or defending a castle is a huge advantage for meele units too.

[TheHateMale]

...but the walls only come up to their ankles.