Chop Strategy

[IVZanIV]

Hey, this is my first post here, although I have been watching unregistered for a long time. I'm not sure if this has been asked yet, and I'd like to know, so any help would be appreciated.

I have heard many people (some very respected) say that they use the "chop strategy," which, from what I discern, is the wanton chopping of all trees. My question is, wouldn't this strategy be detrimental in the long run, creating abundant food, but few hammers? I suppose teamed with the slavery civic it could be powerful, but does this wok any other way?

[Blake]

The biggest loss is the loss of health.

Firstly, end-game forests have stats of +3 Hammers. As it happens State Property Workshops also give +3 Hammers.

In the early game, forests only give +1 hammer. Mines give +2 hammers. You're usually better off working mines for production, unless you happen to be very low on hills.

For that matter farms+engineers is actual equal to forests pre-improvement. Take two grassland forests and work them both, you get net +2 hammers. You could instead farm them both and create an eningeer with the surplus +2 food, you get a net +2 hammers (but granted at the cost of another health and happy). In short, forests are not needed for hammers.

Cottages are the single-best improvement in the game, in many cases you'll be better off paving over forests with cottages so they grow into towns, which are so nice under Free Speech+Suffrage.

It is my humble opinion (and this may be a bit zen), that early/mid-game forests are most useful when they aren't being worked. They aren't at all great to work. Their greatness comes from the passive +0.5 health, allowing you to work more non-forest tiles or assign specialists. (this effect is particullary noticable for One City Challenge games)

In the end whether to keep forests or chop them depends largely on the health situation. Coastal cities probably wont need their forests, as harbors will eventually add another +3 health. Forests are more important for cities sans-harbor. Also in some games you'll have very few +health resources and forests will prove desirable. Also some cities simply wont grow big enough to stress health limits, these are like the starving hill cities, feel free to chop them completely clean.

[El Conquistador]

The expansive trait might help with the health issues that come from chopping too much. +2 health in all cities can be gained by choosing either cyrius, victoria, bismarck, julius ceasar, peter or isabella. the faster production of harbors won't hurt either.

[Cort Haus]

In short, forests are not needed for hammers.

Ultimately, there is truth in this, but things like Towns under Uni Suff (sans Pyramids), State Property and Engineers (plural) are not really available until towards the end of the game. The only early game alternative to forests, in no-hill situations, is pop-rushing.

I think forests are still needed for hammers in low-food, low-hammer sites - especially no-special tundra coastal cities. You might not even want to build there, but if you don't, the AI will.

Are State Property Workshops still -1 food, btw?

[Blake]

Yes, I said an exception was very low hill sites. And of course the other exception is (non-hill,non-fresh water) tundra forest and (non-hill) desert forest, if you cut it the tile will be forever dead, so it's usually best to leave the forest on those tiles if they are within city radius.

State Property Workshops are -1 food plus +1 food for 0 net food. If you beeline for chemistry hardcore you'll actually have -1 food +3 hammer workshops, which basically beat plain +1 hammer forests. If you beeline hardcore for communism you'll have +2 hammer workshops which beat +1 hammer forests.
Remember workers eat 2 food, so a 1-2-0 tile ("plains forest") is actually only +1 for that population point. A mined hill 1-3-0 ("grassland hill") is +2, actually double the net profit. This is why forests aren't so great compared to hills, they are only very marginally better than nothing.

One other concern about forests. You should basically chop forests along rivers to get that +1 commerce early in the game, I always clearcut my rivers then watermill, cottage and farm them. It's also a good idea to cut most the forest adjacant to cities so that hostiles can't use them to besiege the city.

[VetLegion]

How does the game decide how many hammers cutting the forest contributes to the city?

[IVZanIV]

Not sure but it seems (for me at least) to decline with time, perhaps to simulate woods decreasing value in later ages?

[Enigma_Nova]

30 Hammers within 2 tiles, modified by Industrious / Resources / Forge / The Alignment of the moons of venus
For greater distances, less hammers. I don't know exactly how they vary, though.

[VetLegion]

I think I got 135 hammers once from chopping a forest on a hill

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by VetLegion
How does the game decide how many hammers cutting the forest contributes to the city?

Here you go ...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=148258

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Blake
Yes, I said an exception was very low hill sites. And of course the other exception is (non-hill,non-fresh water) tundra forest and (non-hill) desert forest, if you cut it the tile will be forever dead, so it's usually best to leave the forest on those tiles if they are within city radius.

I'm playing a nearly no-hills game, and my capital has four forests waiting for Lumber Mills, but meanwhile I'm hardly using them. The rest are cottages. Builds are dog slow, but given the choice between working a 2/1/0 or a 2/0/6 in the capital, when there's Democracy & Rep Parts nearby, the commerce is irresistable.

You're right Blake, unimproved forest tiles are only slighly better than nothing.

Low-hammer games are great for sharpening city specialisation skills, IMV, as well as pop-rushing skills. You really have to think very carefully what to build, because you can hardly build what you need, let alone everything.

One other concern about forests. You should basically chop forests along rivers to get that +1 commerce early in the game, I always clearcut my rivers then watermill, cottage and farm them. It's also a good idea to cut most the forest adjacant to cities so that hostiles can't use them to besiege the city.

Under these circumstances do you watermill as soon as they are available? And as many as possible with the rest cottages?

[snafuc4]

Originally posted by VetLegion
How does the game decide how many hammers cutting the forest contributes to the city?

Unless v1.52 has changed anything, http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showt...83#post4199383 should help

[Blake]

Under these circumstances do you watermill as soon as they are available? And as many as possible with the rest cottages?

There's no hard and fast answer to that. The base watermill is a marginal improvement, on grassland it'll be 2-1-1, but you'll note that it is one commerce better than a forest. I tend to just watermill because it's not as if anything else could be built that would provide higher short term benefits.

Since I'm a communist (State Property) I'm of the school of thought that watermills should be built at maximum density. If however you're not a devoted commie then watermills aren't quite a clear cut #1 improvement. They are basically just a good well-rounded improvement that will suit financial civs fine.

But getting back to communism, I usually beeline communism blasting right through Sci.Meth then forge ahead through Physics and to Electricity. For this beeline my watermills get both the state property food bonus and the eletricty commerce bonus, therfore my playstyle definitely benefits much more from watermills than would someone who gets railroad before sci.method...

[Arrian]

I tend only to build watermills later in the game, once I've gotten electricity(?), which improves them. I'd rather farm or cottage before then.

I've yet to use State Property, though. I typically don't have an empire far-flung enough to really take advantage of it (well, I did once on a Terran map, but that was long ago and I'm not going back to that game).

-Arrian

[VetLegion]

Thanks for the links!