Not enough turns?

[Skyweaver]

Having played a half dozen games, i get the feeling that there are fewer turns than in previous games. I am not an expert player, but i have never even got close to the space victory because i can't get the tech quick enough. I have always played a science civ in previous versions so i felt fairly confident at adapting it, but no joy so far. Is there something i am missing?
I am really enjoying all the non violent ways to win available in the game now

Happy New Year all,


Skyweaver

[Thorpedo]

I got the exact same feeling when I started playing CIV IV - I believe there is fewer turns (compared to CIV III - though I don't have the exact figures). Add to this that the techs themselves is more expensive (it takes more beakers to get a new tech - but you can compensate for this in the game settings - play a "Quick" game if you want the techs to be less expensive).

I didn't like to trade my techs in previous versions of CIV and were rather protectionistic in my approach. I find that in CIV IV I have to trade to stay in the game. So find som friends and trade all you can.

Thorpedo

[Verrucosus]

Coming from "Alpha Centauri" where few games lasted more than 200 turns, I felt the opposite way at first. I don't know about Civ3, but the 450 turns or so you get in a "normal" Civ4 game is about what we had in a Civ2 game on King level/standard map.

If the number of turns is the problem, I strongly recommend "epic". I've only used it once so far, but I really enjoyed myself. On that note, changing the game speed alone won't affect your research problem. On "epic" you have more turns, but techs are (more or less) correspondingly more expensive. It's the other way around for "quick". (I haven't tried the "Marathon" setting yet.)

There are many ways to speed up research. For a start, consider building an early library in the capital, making two 2 scientists until you get a Great Scientist to found an academy. Use cottages to increase base commerce. Technology trading is a great way to get some techs off your shopping list. (Still, there will be situations where this is less important than deny others access to a certain technology.)

[Velociryx]

Marathon!

Absolutely love it. Each tech decision is AGONIZING, because you will feel the weight and echo of that decision for a great many turns. REALLY adds a depth of strategy to the game. I almost never play anything else!

-=Vel=-

[Skyweaver]

Thanks people, you have confirmed some of my suspicions about the game (not negative ones, i hasten to add ). I need a few more games under my belt to suss out the finer points of the new version.
Has any one else found that a Cultural victory is fairly easy? Do people also feel that the UN victory is particularly hard? Any tips on that one would be welcome as well.

K'plah


Skyweaver.

[Lochlann]

I know it's a little early to inquire into this, but...is there any way to modify the game to remove the turn limit? I have yet to open my copy of Civ 4 (tomorrow outta be the day...), but if my experiences with its predecessors are any indication, I'll be chafing at the turn limit. I simply love to play long, drawn-out Civ games, and the turn limit is always a thorn in my side.

[Quillan]

No need to modify the game at all for that. When you get into the game, one of your options will be "Custom game". That lets you start a new game with a bunch of parameters you can set at the start. One of those is the time limit.

[joncnunn]

Re: Not enough turns?

Pre lastest patch normal mode is indeed about 25% fewer turns than Civ III.

The latest patch seems to have added 50 turns in the 19th and 20th centuries.

On improving your science, the biggy is build more cottages on non-resource tiles. [Especally those lovey flood plains].
Lighthouses in sea cities are also important as is trade connections.
Also, windmills seem to be better than mines. That chance to discover new resource from a mine only applies while the mine is active; and those mines without a resouce don't tend to be worked.

Also, while founding a religion, owning the shrine, and spreading it with missonaries doesn't directly boost your science, it greatly increases your revenue allowing you to set science at a higher rate than you otherwise could. (You get this gold weather or not it is your state religion)

Originally posted by Skyweaver
Having played a half dozen games, i get the feeling that there are fewer turns than in previous games. I am not an expert player, but i have never even got close to the space victory because i can't get the tech quick enough. I have always played a science civ in previous versions so i felt fairly confident at adapting it, but no joy so far. Is there something i am missing?
I am really enjoying all the non violent ways to win available in the game now

Happy New Year all,


Skyweaver

[joncnunn]

I would guess there would be a very large number of turns on Marathon where you do nothing but hit enter, particularly if your a peaceful builder and not a war mongler.

Athough, I would guess that once you have Organized Religion you can spread your religion quite a bit faster [as a percentage of the length of game] than normal. .. Unless there's only 1 of each national leader allowed in marathon instead of the normal 3.

The thought of each epic taking a normal game's length of turns is just scary.

Originally posted by Velociryx
Marathon!

Absolutely love it. Each tech decision is AGONIZING, because you will feel the weight and echo of that decision for a great many turns. REALLY adds a depth of strategy to the game. I almost never play anything else!

-=Vel=-

[Skyweaver]

Woohoo!
More grist to the mill. I have the new patch and will check out a few more games and report back. Thanks everyone so far. Good advice all round.



Skyweaver

[Verrucosus]

Originally posted by joncnunn
I would guess there would be a very large number of turns on Marathon where you do nothing but hit enter, particularly if your a peaceful builder and not a war mongler.

Athough, I would guess that once you have Organized Religion you can spread your religion quite a bit faster [as a percentage of the length of game] than normal. .. Unless there's only 1 of each national leader allowed in marathon instead of the normal 3.

The thought of each epic taking a normal game's length of turns is just scary.

"Scary" is exactly what I thought when I first read the Marathon description. I want to find out what it's like, but first I'll try out a few more map types on normal and epic. (This game will keep me busy for years!)

The main effect of an extended game length seems to be in the areas of exploration and warfare, because movement costs have not been changed. Did anyone check whether there are any other statistics that are not adjusted to the number of turns? I noticed that apart from building and research costs, all culture values (border expansion, great artworks, legendary status) and even terrain improvement times are affected. I'm not certain about the costs of generating great people, city growth, the mandatory length of diplomatic agreements, number of turns between UN votes etc. It would also be interesting to check whether the adjustments are proportionate to the change in the number of turns (and to each other).

Although the effect on gameplay is limited (but profound in the areas where it exists) and although I woudn't consider myself a warmonger, I never felt that I just had to click the turns away on Epic. In particular, I like the decision to adjust production costs. They didn't do that with the SMAC tech stag option which affected tech costs only and gave you too much time to build everything you could before the next tech arrived removing an important element of choice from the game. (Of course, you could rebalance the game by using more energy and fewer mineral crawlers.)

joncnunn, could you please elaborate the comment about the number of "national leaders allowed"? I'm afraid I missed something there.

[joncnunn]

Sure, in normal mode, you can only have 3 active Spys, 3 active Christian missonaries, 3 active Budist missonaries, etc. at a time.
This includes queues.

If the longer games decrease the national leaders down to say 1, this means you can't even start a new missonary build until you use up your existing one of the same type. This is noticable even when spreading your religion within your own empire.

[Verrucosus]

Ah, I see. That's an interesting point. In terms of turns relative to game length, missionaries won't be created faster than on "normal" (because of production cost adjustment), but they'll get faster to were you want to send them. This means you have a slightly better chance to spread an early religion before a new religion founded by someone else makes this more difficult. It's a rather subtle aspect that corresponds to the idea of giving us more time to use units before they become obsolete. I'd be surprised if they had tried to counter that by reducing the number of missionaries allowed at any given time. The increase of training costs should be enough to prevent abuse, particularly considering that missionaries expire when used.

[Skyweaver]

Interesting about the religions. I haven't used them yet other than to build temples for happiness ratings. How does it affect the game as such?
Also, has anyone won the UN victory yet? If so, how? lol
Cheers,
Skyweaver.

[Verrucosus]

I've proposed a UN victory a few times, but despite generous tech gifting I've never had enough votes so far. Perhaps it's because, towards the end of the game, I tend to discard my state religion. At that point, I get along with most of the other leaders, but noone really loves me.

Religion has all sorts of strategic uses such as:
- culture from religious buildings
- getting the most out of the religious civics
- diplomatic bonuses/penalties
- extra income from shrines
There has been a lot of discussion about religion in other threads, particularly immediately after the game's release back in October. (Is it already two months?)

On the number of turns subject, I had a peek at "marathon" this morning and, strangely, I feel it's a setting that seems ideally suited for testing and learning ... if you have lots of spare time that is. It's like using a magnifying glass on the game mechanics. This does not just apply to the areas where gameplay is significantly different from normal settings. While you certainly get a better feel for the various units because they don't get obsolete as quickly, even the effect of your civilian infrastructure becomes much more visible. For example, if you do something to boost your research output by 20 %, you have to pay attention that, for a given tech, your research time has dropped from 10 turns to 8 turns. On marathon, you can't help but be impressed how it has dropped from 30 turns to 24 turns. It's not really different from the normal game speed - as joncnunn said, you just click "end turn" three times as often - but because the effects are more visible, your decisions feel more important. I really like that. While I don't think it will become my default setting, I certainly understand why Velociryx is so enthustiastic about Marathon.