Paying gold to convert units to a more advanced type

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by jerry247
The city attack upgrade increases a units attak vs a city. A swordsman start with +25 (I think, well we'll say) so against a city that's 7.2, against a new city with no walls and a longbowman (+25 city defense) it'd be 7.2 vs 7.2.

I read somewhere that the "city raider" promotion subtracts from your enemy instead of adding to your own.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by eluciv
Thanks for the answers guys, but my question remains.
When you attack a city, the city defense percentage is shown and this number goes down as you bombard. Now this number - is that only cultural defense, physical defense or just the higher of the two? I seem to remember being told defense isn't additive with cultural/physical but maybe that's wrong.

The city defense shown is the highest for that type of unit.

choose a gunpowder unit and get one percentage, choose a non-gp unit and you will get a different percentage.

It would seem weird that you could bombard cultural defense...unless it's designed to represent decreasing morale in the citizens of a bombarded city.

So the question is, since gunpowder units ignore physical defense (walls and castles), I assume a city raider upgraded to gunpowder would only get the modifier vs. the cultural defense percentage. Ya think? And if so, this number (cultural or physical percentage) decreases with bombardment, right?

Yes.

ACK!

[DeepO]

Just some clarification: city raider promotions are subtracted from the defender, instead of added to the attacker like normal. The reasons are a bit dark, and mysterious to explain; it was needed for balancing issues compared to other promotions. IIRC, the actual The effect should be the same, though: city raider I perfectly outbalances city defender I, CR II balances CD II, etc.

DeepO

[DeepO]

As to city raider II or III grenadiers: look here for some discussion on the topic.

My personal experiences seem to indicate that in many situations, those 'lost' promotions can be very much worth the trouble of basing your entire strategy on.

Some examples:

- Archers upgrade to gunpowder units. Archers can get first strikes promotions, gunpowder not. A Drill III inf is a very powerful pillager, and in general a good unit for open-ground defense (like on top of siege stacks)

- Medic promotions on gunships (from any of the mounted units). Mobile hospitals, with automatic tank-defense. Great for protecting wounded tanks.

- city raider on grenadiers. Like said in the other thread, these are most powerful when you don't research rifling soon, but go for grenadiers/cannons asap. Without riflemen to upgrade to, you can still build pikes/macemen, both of which upgrade to grenadiers, and later rifles/infs. You need money, of course, but so far I found a couple of games that let me stop all research and simply take out everyone else with slowmover stacks.

If you decide to play exclusively to such a 'strange' upgrade path, you can gain a lot. Especially the city raider grenadiers (add westpoint: +100% vs cities for grenadiers and following rifles/infs: unbeatable units vs the AI). As always, it also means you will lose something: Medic promotions on gunships are nice, but if you already have medic promotions on other units, you need first strikes or e.g. ambush instead. Otherwise, medic I & II are simply a
waste.


DeepO

[snafuc4]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Naval units can be upgraded if they are within your cultural boundaries.

Hmm.. I was /sure/ I checked this, but maybe I made the basic mistake of not having enough cash.. (

[DeepO]

Originally posted by snafuc4


Hmm.. I was /sure/ I checked this, but maybe I made the basic mistake of not having enough cash.. (

If you don't have the cash, you still will see the upgrade button, but greyed out.

Upgrade basically checks 3 things:
1. Within own borders
2. still some MP remaining (you can't upgrade things that have spent all their movement this turn)
3. proper resources available.

If these 3 are present, the button is present. If you have enough cash, you can actually click it too.

DeepO

[xxFlukexx]

I agree with the OP, Marines not upgrading to anything seems like an oversight. It is one of the reasons why the American UU sucks so bad. I mean I would like to build Marines, but since they are largely useless once you get Mech. Inf. that really makes you think you better not build any Marines ever.

City Raider III Grenadiers are nasty, I mean they sure feel like cheating when using them, +75% vs anything in the City, +50% more vs Riflemen and +10% more vs Gunpowder units, that gives you +135%!(well some of the bonus is -xx% to the enemy like stated a few posts above) Imagine if you got City Raider III + Combat I + Pinch, look out.

If City Raiders were balanced for Grenadiers, they we would be able to put City Raiders on new Grenadiers too. I am guessing that City Raiders on a unit that is upgraded to where they can't use City Raiders will be changed to Combats(or just let us reassign promos) in a patch or expansion pack eventually, but until someone official-like says that it is unbalanced and will be changed, I'll keep using 'em.

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by xxFlukexx

If City Raiders were balanced for Grenadiers, they we would be able to put City Raiders on new Grenadiers too. I am guessing that City Raiders on a unit that is upgraded to where they can't use City Raiders will be changed to Combats(or just let us reassign promos) in a patch or expansion pack eventually, but until someone official-like says that it is unbalanced and will be changed, I'll keep using 'em.

Well it sounds like the normally-disallowed promotions do in fact work for the upgraded units in question. This was asked early on in this thread and never definitively answered. I will upgrade more raiders to grenadiers, from now on. I didn't that much before because I thought the grens were mostly used against riflemen and I haven't seen much of them from AI's in the games I've played so far. (Difficulty level may be a factor.)

And this talk about mech infantry? I haven't played a late game yet, either winning or losing early, but I checked the unit roster and I thought mech inf disappeared between Civ3 and Civ4. I even put it in my poll results as a unit to be added. Stupid me!

There's some guys on other strategy threads saying "never upgrade." One masochist suggests marching all your archaic units in suicide human wave attacks against the enemy! (I thought they got rid of "spear kills tank?" )

The upgrade costs in Civ4 compared to Civ3 are high and I don't understand the reasoning for that, maybe another perceived play balance measure; but I've played a couple games where the difficulty was low enough and my financial emphasis was high, where I was actually able to pay the costs and convert all field army and garrisons from axe/archer to rifle, even if it was $500 per man. (Yeah, I had some cheaper mace/knight/crossbow conversions too, but there always seemed to be some primitive units hanging around, due to the research/production time incongruity; which I understand may have been corrected if you use the new "marathon" speed.)

Full conversion seems to shock the AI's into submission. As their spy scouts and caravels start to see my cities full of riflemen, despair seems to enter their hearts, as it should when they're still stuck with an expensive mob of axemen. As I move into higher difficulty games and longer games, where another two conversions are necessary for the modern and post-modern eras, full conversion may not be feasible, in which case suicide spearchucker attacks sound very acceptable. (No production gain on "disbandment" in Civ4 either. ) However, in general, from an efficiency standpoint, I think upgrade is the way to go when possible.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by xxFlukexx
but until someone official-like says that it is unbalanced and will be changed, I'll keep using 'em.

Well, I'm in no way official, so don't take my word for it. But believe me, this is not an oversight: we knew for a long time about these exceptions, and steps have been taken to balance them. City raider on grenadiers is very legal.

It's not exploitative, as you will need to forego some things as well. In general, CR grenadiers will lead to slower arties, or even no arties. Plus, you need cash as well, something not everyone will like.

They truely become devastating when you can upgrade those grenadiers to infs... before tanks are around, and without oil as a prerequisite, you can have a devastating city attack force. Oil is not crucial at all if you want to go conquering, but you must play for it.

DeepO

[afrodius]

I really have to question the wisdom of sending obsolete units on suicide missions since all you will really be doing is handing your enemy easy promotions. Much better to simply disband your unit if you cant afford to upgrade it and dont wanna pay the soldiers salary anymore. Personally I have always liked to keep them around for a while even if i cant afford to upgrade them. Obsolete units can help prevent rebellion in border and newly captured cities and later on you might have the cash to upgrade them. However, I am certainly not above disbanding or sending to the front a poorly trained unit (like the free ones you get when a city succumbs to your culture and flips), but one with some experience will surely come in handy more often than not.

[Hauptman]

As far as naval upgrades....

It must be in your cultural borders and have trade access to a city within that border.

that is... If you have a non coastal city border that juts out into the ocean, but there is not a trade route from your ships square to a city wich does not leave your cultural influence, you cannot upgrade there.

[anchorjim]

Thanks Hauptman, that finally explains the behavior I was seeing. It was always with naval units that I would sometimes be able to upgrade within my cultural borders, and other times not.