How will this change combat?

[Diadem]

Originally posted by Jaybe

Thanx, I had forgotten. Yes, Cat/Cannon/Arty collateral caps are 50/60/70. Good enough, just have to remember they are not that much better than bombers (and in 1.52 that could be significant).

Is 50/60/70 their max damage here, or the minimum hp their target will have?

In other words, can artillery reduce an enemy to 30 hp, or 70 hp?

[Jaybe]

Must be max damage. Why would arty be less potent than cats? I have surely seen arty smash defenders to half strength or less.

[DeepO]

Well... the XML tag is called iCollateralDamageLimit, not iCollateralHPLimit

DeepO

[xxFlukexx]

Originally posted by DeepO
All this combat change does, was to solve a design bug, if you want to call it like that. Cities will not be unbeatable, however wounded defenders fell too fast... not anymore.
DeepO

Yeah, that is what I am seeing too, cities are still very beatable, suicide siege still does it's job very well. Seems great imo.

I wonder if you could solve something for me, I was playing a game just fooling around with Isabella and keeping a close eye on exactly which combat bonuses give your guy + and which give the enemy -. I came across this weirdness with elephants. No I don't mod my game or use mods, heck my comp that has Civ4 isn't even hooked up to the Internet.

Here is me holding down alt before my Pikeman charges this enemy Elephant(I reloaded to get this):



Hmmm, Elephant has a strength of 4.2? I was expecting 4.4, but ok, let's check out the combat report:



Weird it actually has 4.21 strength, now how would that ever happen? He is at 100% health because he gets hit for 24 and then has 76/100 hp.

A few turns later I meet another Elephant(this time he has Shock):



Disregarding my horrible luck, 4.84 strength? Is there something wrong with my game?

[DeepO]

Originally posted by xxFlukexx

Weird it actually has 4.21 strength, now how would that ever happen?

First of all, if CIV will tell you 4.21, it will calculate with 4.21. This is not a display bug, these strengths shown are correct.

Second, there are some hidden things at work, which aren't always explained to full detail... the combat log is more accurate, but less easy to read. This is true for all type specific attack boni, the ones that are calculated as negative to the defender instead of positive for the atacker. The same happens with city attack, which is why that too will lead to some unexpected strengths. Might not be perfect, but this is done so that everyone will get a good idea of strengths, instead of few players being able to use it, while most can't read the info given.

Third, you have to think in ratios, as that's what's really going on... additive math, but in ratios tend to confuse. You can't have a -100% modifier, or a -125% modifier: it would give negative strength for the defender... instead, you need to add all boni and if it's negative, instead of multiplying, you need to divide.

Let me explain using your example(s):

A unpromoted spear gets a -100% vs a unpromoted elephant. instead of the strength being 8 -100%*8 (meaning 0), you should do 8 / (1+100%) = 4.

In your example, the spear gets 6 +10%*6 = 6.6
the elephant gets a -90% bonus (being -100% from the spear, +10% from the Combat I on the elephant). -90% is negative, so you need to divide. So the elephant is 8 / (1+90%) = 8 / 1.9 = 4.21

Last example, the spear gets +20% from Combat II (so 6 * (1+20%) = 7.2
The elephant gets +10% from Combat I, +25% from Pinch, -100% from the spear attacking. Which is +10%+25%-100% = -65%.
this is negative, so the strength goes to 8 / (1+65%) = 8 / 1.65 = 4.84

If you think it through a bit more, you will see why this is necessary too. You really need to 'feel' this, it's very hard to explain. The only simple way of having additive math instead of multipliers is by separating attackers from defenders: a 25% City Radier bonus on one side has to cancel a 25% City Defender bonus on the other. Add more promotions in the mix (e.g. Combat ones), and there's only one decent way of doing that: subtract offensive bonusses, and divide if the total gets negative.

DeepO

[Mujadaddy]

All you people doubting cannons are, how you say smoking crack. Two city raiders on cannons and I can blitzkrieg cities like they weren't there. Steel-on-target is how stacks are fought in Civ4. You can use obselete/underpowered units as long as your siege is up-to-date/advanced...

[player1]

And Artillery obliterates Riflemen...

[xxFlukexx]

Gonna bump this back up as I have two questions about combat really quick. First, the +50% vs rifles that grenadiers get, that seems to work only on offense, is that WAD(working as designed)?

Second question, a 3.0 archer vs a 2.0 warrior on a forest, who wins? I tought it would be a directly even fight but:



So if they have the same strength and the same firepower then why isn't it an even 50% chance to win?

[sovietwaffle]

First STrike?