Are swordsmen useless?

[Possibility]

I have yet to see swordsmen used effectively. Does it not seem more adventageous to just make axemen instead? In the multiplayer games I have played, in the early portion its usually axemen wars, or horse archers vs spears.

Anyone found any effective use for swordsmen yet?

Possibility

[Cort Haus]

RTFM

p 185 : +10% City Attack

Now who's useless?

[Arrian]

[comments apply to SP, MP is another matter]

6 STR, 10% city attack = 6.6 against cities, unpromoted. Use a city raider promo. If you're aggressive you will start with combat 1, so taking a cover promo is another option.

Obviously, they will have problems against Axemen. If you're worried about counterattacks, have at least 1 axeman (combat 1 + shock, if possible) in your stack. AI cities are typically defended by mostly archers, and the swords are good against those.

The best case pre-catapults, I find, is flanking-promoted chariots or horse archers to soften the opposition, followed by city raider swords/axes.

...

In MP... anything I say will be speculative. If the opposition is axe-heavy, then swords don't look too good (but horse archers do...).

-Arrian

[Fried-Psitalon]

Swords are the ancient-era siege unit. Think of them that way if it helps. A sword promoted with City Attack is considerably better than an Axe or Horse Archers with the same number of promotions at doing one thing: taking cities.

We use catapults to take cities in the medieval; swords in the classical.

[Possibility]

I guess I should have said in multiplayer games and high end expert games. In single player, well the AI is stupid so anything can be used agianst them.

In multiplayer, archers arent used much for city defense (unless your city is on a hill), and everyone makes axemen and spears. And attacking a city with swordsmen defended by fortified axemen is stupid suicide.

The swordsmens +10% attack against cities is worthless, that only gives it 6.6 attack, against an axemens 7.5. And an axemen can be easily upgraded with the +20% city attack.

I am just saying in all the multiplayer games I have played, I rarely ever see swordsmen used, and the few times I have they just got emmidiately raped and the player that was making them quickly changed to something else.

I think the swordsman should have a stronger bonus against cities to warrent its extra cost and quick death to the enemies axemen. It should get atleast a +20% city attack bonus.

Possibility

[John-SJ]

Originally posted by Possibility
...
The swordsmens +10% attack against cities is worthless, that only gives it 6.6 attack, against an axemens 7.5. And an axemen can be easily upgraded with the +20% city attack.
...
Possibility

Did you mean to say "upgrade (defending axeman) with 20% city attack"?

If so, I am not sure how a city attack bonus helps a defending unit, unless I am missing something, which is quite possible.

[Bill3000]

...how is an Archer worthless outside of a hill? Sure it does not have its hill bonus there, but with city walls and city defense promotions, it is an excellent defender either way.

[Possibility]

Bill3000, think about it, an archer only has a defense of 3 with +50% for cities, thats a wopping 4.5 - ooooh, which isnt much against a swordsmens 6.6. On the other hand you can make an axemen to defend your city which has a rating of 7.5 against a swordsman. You tell me which makes a better city defender?

There is no way in hell swordsmen can take a city defended by axemen, unless you have atleast 3:1 numerical advantage.

John, the axemen can get the city attack upgrades and so can be used on the offensive to attack cities like the swordsmen would be used for. Obviously the city attack upgrades wont do much for a defending axeman. Its better to attack a city with axemen then swordsmen, because that way the 2 axemens +50% melee bonus cancels out. (Or attack with horse archers if he doesnt have any spears.)

Also, if your being attack via horse archers, then you make spears to defend your city, not archers. So in a competitive multiplayer game, you dont find many archers defending cities (unless on a hill) and never see swordsmen anywhere.

Possibility

[JackRudd]

Of course, archers do have a number of advantages over axemen:

They can still be built if your supplies of metals are cut off.
They are somewhat lower in cost.
They can be given the City Defender promotions.

[Tebriel]

I find City Defense promoted archers do quite well in the beginning.

[Bhruic]

For the record, you are applying the bonuses incorrectly. Bonuses vs specific unit types subtract from the enemy's stats, they don't add to their own unit. Not that your conclusion is incorrect because of that, but it changes the numbers a little.

Bh

[pupfiction]

Don't archers get a first-strike chance as well?

[johnmcd]

Also, archers will have their 25% fortification bonus.

I don't really understand the poster though. He's posed a question, got an answer, and set out to ridicule anyone that doesn't think axemen are the be all and end all anyway.

[Yyrkroon]

I agree with the point that swordsmen need some additional bonus or increase to make them useful.

They are rarely used in good MP play.

I'm only an 'average' ladder player (a little under .500) but I rarely see them used against me.

Now, non ladder games are a different animal, but my batting average is closer to .750-.800 there, and that is probably not mere coincidence.

So obviously most good players don't think they are worth it under most conditions.

--
re: archers - they are cheap and 'decent' for city defense. If I can build an archer in 3 turns, or an axeman in 5 turns, and the enemy is 4 turns away, you had better believe I'm using the archer.

--
re: SP v MP - I wouldn't say it as stridently as some of the others, but it is true. As in most games, SP strategies and experiences are practically worthless.

Reminds me of MultiPlayer Battletech, where new players would sing their own praises by announcing that they had "beaten MechWarrior 2 twice - on hard!"

[Blake]

Hmmm, maybe Swordmen need an attack bonus vs Axemen?

Or maybe the Axemen bonus should only be on attack?