Great Scientist - Academies, multiple or not?

[Zorkk]

Hey Everyone,

Just wanted to get some opinions/thoughts about how to use great scientists.

In my current game, playing the earth map that came with the game as China (wow, what a cool starting position they have!!) and I've been able to create a couple great scientists early on. So I used them and created 2 acadamies in the 2 highest research cities I had. I keep wondering tho, If perhaps I would have been better off using 1 to create an academy, and the 2nd, as a super specialist in the city that had the academy. Thoughts, opinions??

Also, same kind of questions regarding great Prophets, basically is it better to spread them out around different cities? or pile them all into one city?

Also, what should I do with further Great Scientist peeps? I have 3 or 4 good commerce/research cities, that could definatly benefit from the +50% research the academy gives, but I dunno if that's the best use or not.

TIA

Z

[xxFlukexx]

It is probably better to make the 2nd academy. A great scientist gives +1 hammer/+6 science if I recall correctly. So if he settled in a city with an academy + library that would give him 10.5 science so any city that has 20 base science would probably want that academy. If you have representation going then a great scientist would give 15.75 science points if settled in a city with an academy + library, so another city would have to have 30 base science to be worth an academy there.

For Great Prophets, it is best to pile them into your great shrine city and if you lack that, then put them into any commerce city but make sure to put in Wall Street there.

[Quillan]

I have forgotten the exact number now, but it's pure mathematics. Hold your mouse pointer above the research output of your city in the city screen, and a box will pop up that gives the exact breakdown of research. Look at your base commerce. If 50% of your base commerce is greater than the beakers provided by the super science specialist, then you'll come out better with the Academy.

As to the prophets, I've taken to following Sensei's strategy. In most games I wind up with one city that has Wall Street and Iron Works in it; all great prophets settle there aside from any used to build shrines. They generate many many bonus hammers and gold, all of which gets modified up by the market/bank/grocer/wall street and the forge/factory/powerplant/iron works/iron/coal combos.

[BigWilly1974]

I never do the math I just go with my gut. My current game, which has been perhaps my best so far, I've built Academies in probably 5 cities. I haven't counted, but I know I have a number.

For most of the game, I was slightly behind Mansa and was #2 in tech, but as I got into the Industrial Era, I've really powered into the tech lead.

I say as long as you still have good beaker cities, build Academies.

[Blake]

Indeed. The main exception is for Philo civs, since they generate the scientists so darn fast I recommend turning the second one into a Great Scientist to accelerate research NOW.

Otherwise it's usually better to make more acadamies, because even if a GS would be better in the short term, it wont be too long before the commerce cities grow enough. The acadamies also provide +4 culture and this must be taken into consideration, especially for non-creative non-stonehenge civs. Sometimes I make an acadamy in an early-conquest city which will later become a commerce city, the short-term beakers boost is truly minimal, but the border expansions are for the good of the empire.

[Shaka II]

I would say the academy for the high science cities is the best use if it's before the end game where substantial benefits can be obtained. It's typical that I'll have two or three of my own cities with academies and three to five captured enemy capitals with academies, so by the time the modern era rolls around, I'll often have 5-8 academies.

[Strollen]

Obviously the correct answer like all Civ 4 strategy questions, is
"it depends".

However, in general I build 2 academies. I always build a science city which has Library, Univ, Observatory, Lab and of course Oxford+ Academy For most of the game a specialist in that city will be generating 6 beakers +200% =18 beakers and by the end game 21 beakers. It is hard to find another city which has more than 40 raw commerce beside my capital and science city. Since, I often have the Pyramids the extra 3 beakers makes it even tougher to not turn the scientist into a super specialist.

[joncnunn]

Well, in my current game, I've goten 5 Great Scientists, including the free one from Physics.
So I'm now blessed with 4 Academies of my own plus the one I conquered. The other Great Scientist, either my second or third granted me Philosphacy for free and therefore founded Taoism.

I've been blessed with nice rivers + coastal city powerhouses.

[Dis]

speaking of Earth map, I just finished an Earth map (the standard version) and did create 2 academys.

The second one still didn't perform as well as I'd hoped. I put it in Los Angeles (I was playing the americans in their appropiate position- and LA was also in the correct position more or less). LA was a pretty good city. Although it was more on production than commerce. But the commerce was pretty decent. As I had put cottages on every square except for the hills and pig resource. It was an exceptional city, so that's why I put the academy there.

I think by the end of the game it was really paying off. My research was fantastic. It just took a while to get all my buildings in place before I could really reap the benefits.

[Aginor]

3 options - Academy, Scientist or tech RIGHT NOW:

Academy vs. Scientist - Figure up what you can get out of your first city with him, given all bonuses, over the course of the near term. Remember that you may have Oxford to contend with (which can push him up to 12 science per turn over another city with the same improvements otherwise). Generally speaking, you'll be producing more than that and the second/third/fourth academies are better bets.

BUT - # of turns left factors into burning him immediately for a tech. If he provides 2kish beakers late, and you can get 40 beakers out of an Academy in a 80 beaker city, just do the math - if the game has 2000/40 = 50 turns or more remaining you probably should Academy, and if not burn him. Also, if he will score you a tech that will do something critical (another specialist, Liberalism, key religion founding), you probably should burn him on that.

Chances are that if you want to keep up in tech on higher difficulty levels (much less take the lead) you're going to need a LOT of high commerce cities, and you'll be building a lot of Academies...particularly as those high commerce cities tend to have difficulty building improvements as swiftly as one might like.

[Blake]

I want to clarify something.
The +50% modifier is to raw commerce converted to beakers, not final beakers.

As such the presence of a library etc actually has no impact on the value of the Acadamy.

You should basically always put the Acadamy in whichever city has the highest raw commerce.

So if you have a high-commerce appalling infrastructure city it would probably be the BEST place to put an acadamy.

[Aginor]

Good point, as this also dramatically reduces the value of the Academy in comparison to the Scientist laundered through research bonuses in a full-on science city.

[Zorkk]

Thanks for the replies all, I decided to go with another academy, and I think that was the best choice for my empire. I have 3 cities now that are producing almost 100 beakers/turn

I have another question now tho, How many great people on average is everyone generating in their games? I imagine the map size, and game speed will have an effect, but so far in my game I've generated 4 great people, and i'm in the mid 1500's, researching railroad on monarch level. I dunno whether this is good, bad or average. heheh.

Z

[Dis]

Originally posted by Blake
I want to clarify something.
The +50% modifier is to raw commerce converted to beakers, not final beakers.

As such the presence of a library etc actually has no impact on the value of the Acadamy.

You should basically always put the Acadamy in whichever city has the highest raw commerce.

So if you have a high-commerce appalling infrastructure city it would probably be the BEST place to put an acadamy.

interesting point. I guess my city only starting raking in the beakers because it grew a lot larger in size then.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by joncnunn
I've been blessed with nice rivers + coastal city powerhouses.

I know what you mean.