My Strategy

[Cort Haus]

I think that to pull this off you need to do a lot more diplomatically to first get them to the point where they will consider it (white not red) and beyond that to do it for an acceptable price.

To get Napoleon to attack his pal Ghengis I first sent missionaries, but the convert option was still red. After a while, with most of his cities infected, he converted on his own. With relations improving, more options opened up. Then he offered war for 3 new techs. I gave him a resource and some cash and waited. After a while he'd do it for two techs.

[Arrian]

I was worried for game balance for a while there, but based on what others (including Cort) are finding, I don't think this is as worrying as I originally thought. If you have to a) work on converting your target (for manipulation) or adopt their religion; and b) butter them up with resource gifts; and then c) offer them 2 shiny new techs to get them into a war...

Hell, seems to me that's a-ok. Especially since, in my experience, the AI has a tendency to fight for a bit, do some pillaging, and then make peace.

-Arrian

[Diadem]

Starting late on your first settler is probably a very good strategy. I'm usually doing that as well. I never build a settler before my growth (hapiness) is maxed out, unless I fear the AI may grab some good city sites I want. An early settler is really overrated and, imho, in fact not the best strategy.

Building cottages is probably a nice strategy. But their bonus is quite small compared to, say, a cow. Do your prefer cottages on grassland above resources? I can't see that being a good deal. Perhaps on floodplains.

And of course, instigating as many wars between the AIs as possible, that sounds like a very good idea. I never actually thought of that. But I'll certainly experiment with it, it sounds like a solid idea.

I've already discovered that the key to winning on the higher difficulties is diplomacy. Founding religions can actually hurt this. One game on immortal I was first to hinduism and even judaism, despite not really beelining for it. I tried to convert my neighbours, but there was just no way I could match Isabella's mad buddhist missionary spree. Not much later I was running hinduism while everyone else had buddhism. Not long after that they all closed their borders, and battle was clearly imminent. I was as dead, because I founded (and switched to) hinduism. Jikes.

It doesn't always go like that. Sometimes founding religions can yield you a few very solid allies that stay with you all game long and bring in heaps of gold to boot. But it's a tricky path.

Ignoring the early religions in favor of other important techs keeps you out of any diplomatic troubles for the first part of the game. That can be nice.

Even on the highest difficulty levels you can keep at least level with the AIs in tech. You only fail at that when they all hate you and refuse to trade. But that's diplomacy again. In military numbers, you'll never keep up. But you won't have to, when I fight the AI I typically have a 2 to 1 kill ratio. And they don't send in all their units anyway. As long as you are not too far behind you will win any wars that might happen. They expand a lot faster than you, but again, this is not really a problem. Your cities are more effective, and better managed.

As long as you manage to do well diplomaticly, you can stay in the game, competing for a victory. Doing well means that you have a few solid friends, and your enemies are either weak, or hated by many others.

One perfect game on emperor, on a small map (so 4 AIs) had me being friendly with all but montezuma, whom was the only one not bordering me, and who was hated passionately by two other AIs as well. They kept warring. They asked me to join those wars on occasion, and I always accepted. I never sent in any military, and he never attacked me (since there were always closer enemies). This gave very good diplomatic standings with the other AIs. Monty of course was furious, but he's really easy to make peace with, if you are willing to give him a tidbit. Your allies won't mind if you chicken out, not even if you pay for the peace by giving away key military techs

If you can get the AIs to war eachother while having decent relations with the important ones... You're halfway to winning.

[Wild Pig UK]

To answer Diadem's question:

Normally I go to pottery, and then bronze working for copper/chop. After bronze working, I take whatever techs are necessary to work the resources withing my borders (animal husbandry, hunting, masonry). After 2-3 warriors from my main city, I normally am at a population of 3-4, so I usually wind up working 2 cottages and 2 resources. I find that in combination with chopping forests, I can get out 2 settlers and 2 workers only slightly behind the pace if I had made 2 settlers from turn one. Moreover, once the next 2 cities are founded, I have 4 great tiles being worked in my main city, so I am in a better position to pump out A) techs, B) units and c) wonders from my main city.

[Cort Haus]

I noticed a lot of early chopping in the OP. Chopping two settlers and two workers is a lot of forest. Do you clear-cut? Even if chops are made outside the city borders, another city might be needing them - or would you rather have a cottage there anyway?

I'm not much of an early chopper - if I save forest it often spawns another 1 or 2 by the time I get started on it, and even then I like to leave enough for future hammers and/or 1 health per city, if available.

[GusSmed]

Originally posted by Diadem
I never build a settler before my growth (hapiness) is maxed out, unless I fear the AI may grab some good city sites I want.

You must be playing on Noble or something, since in my experience on Monarch the AI always grabs at least one important city site even if I'm concentrating on settlers from the game start.

From a pure growth standpoint, an early settler is actually a huge advantage over organic city growth. Settler #1 typically costs you 50 food, and gains you a net 4 income (excess food + production) toward future settlers. Growing 2 citizens costs you 46 food but only gains you 2 income toward future Settlers on unimproved terrain.

The drawback is that it costs you production. Only, at the game start, the only thing you can spend production on is Warriors or possibly Stonehenge, so it's no great loss.

- Gus

[GusSmed]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Do you clear-cut?

He's said he does. I'm not thrilled with that aspect of the strategy because when I tried it, my production was crippled in the mid-game. I had 4 cities in the size 10 range, and only the capital produced more than 6 hammers.

- Gus

[Wild Pig UK]

Yep, I do clear cut. I find by the midgame, I have enough food to supports a few mines on hills, or as necessary, a few forges or waterwheels. I also go for metal casting rather early and put a forge in every city that can get a hammer bonus from using it. The combination of the two has always been enough hammers for me. Moreover, if I don't have alot of forests, it usually means I have a surplus of food to support an engineer specialist if necessary. I'm also a big fan of putting my 2nd and 3rd cities on hills if possible for the extra hammer.

I'm willing to pop rush in high food cities (with granaries) once they get to unhappy faces, which is relatively quickly on higher levels. With granaries and appropriate resources, they grow the population back up fairly quickly, and the unhappiness bonus is only 10 turns (about how long it takes for the city to get the population back anyway). Also, with the early cottage strategy (coupled with the use of a financial civ for me), you'll be rolling in money by the time you get to free speech in order to rush buy things.

From the pure math of forests until lumbermills, a forest on a green tile is worth 1 hammer. I'd rather cut the forest, irrigate the tile, and use the extra food to support a mine on a hill. Realistically, it takes 2 food to support every one population point and have city growth remain stagnant. Your main 3 cities are almost always placed near 2 resources that when worked give you 4-5 food, meaning there are 4-6 extra food to support 2 tiles with mines, waterwheels, forges, or engineering specialists. If not, you can always irrigate two tiles to free up the extra two food to support a mine or an engineering specialist.

Finally, chopping a forest gives you 30-45 hammers immediately. Leaving a forest, until lumbermills, only gives you 1 extra hammer per turn (plains with forest = 2 hammer, plains without = 1, green tile with forest = 1 hammer, without = 0). Looking at the obvious one for one math, it takes 30-45 turns of working a forest tile to make up for the chopping (an average game is in the 400-500 turn range). This calculation does not include the extra food you would get by chopping and irrigating (the extra food can then be used to support a mine or specialist), or speeding up the time to production techs (forges, factories, engineering specialists) by using cottages instead.

Moreover, by wanton deforestation, you will drastically speed up the time in which you get forges (25 percent bonus to production plus one engineering specialist), which usually gives you a 2-3 hammer bonus or more for the rest of the game. The bonus of getting up a granary (to quickly get more workable tiles), and forges seems to offset the 1 hammer per turn bonus in my opinion.

Moreover, by the time biology rolls around, I will alternate an irrigated plains tile with a forge plains tile (3 food + 1 hammer, and 1 food + 4 hammers = 4 food and 5 hammers for 2 tiles). This is comparable to early lumbermills on plains (1 food and 3 hammers for a two tile total of 2 food and 6 hammers), but with more food. Finally, lumbermills come in at replaceable parts. By that time, I'm either rolling the AI militarily or gearing up for the spacerace (i.e., the game is almost over).

Incidentally, I generally try beelining to liberalism for the bonus tech, the 10 percent sciences, and losing all the "you have forsaken the faith" diplomatic minuses after I get beuracracy if I'm going for a science victory. Removing the "different faith" minuses makes it alot easier to get the AI to declare war on another AI.

[GusSmed]

I understand the reasoning with hills. An farmed grassland + mined hill gives you a total of 4 food and 3 hammers, which is better than 4 food + 2 hammers from 2 forested grasslands. It's just that you don't always have hills. In my example game, only my capital had any hills to work, which is why it had the production.

Workshops stink initially. A workshop gives you a 1 food / 1 hammer tile, or a 2 hammer tile. I.e. an unimproved plains tile or a unimproved plains hill.

When you get Guilds, they become equivalent to forests, in the sense that a farmed grassland + a workshop grassland gives you 4 food and 2 hammers.

When lumbermills come around, workshops also get +1 production, so a workshop becomes a mined-hill equivalent. Lumbermills are now better than mined hills or workshops, though, because two grassland lumbermills give you 4 food and 4 production.

Railroad boosts that to 4 food and 6 production, but State Property removes the food problem, so a pair of grassland workshops are also 4 food and 6 production.

I don't think it's fair to talk about rushing stuff for cash with Universal Sufferage, which requires Democracy, while simultaneously talking down lumbermills because they require Replaceable Parts. Unless you have the Pyramids, of course.

As far as I can tell, when you rush for cash you're trading money for hammers on a 3:1 basis. A town with universal suffrage gives you 1 production + 6 commerce if you're Financial and have Printing Press, so in theory that's like 3 production, which isn't bad at all. Of course that doesn't help you in the early or mid game when you don't have towns or Universal Sufferage.

- Gus

[ghen]

it took a while to get the AI fighting, but I finally managed it when I got currency. Alex decided he didn't like me much encroaching on his new city so he went to war with me.. I just researched currency, and got ceasar and fredrick in the war. Freddy beat up the new city that started this whole mess, and I razed it to the ground allowing my culture to flex and then got peace and 3gpt to boot.

After I got them fighting it was all downhill for the rest of the world as I took egypt's capitol and wiped out tokogawa entirely (I dislike him ) now I'm the points leader and I don't even have civil service yet. I lost out on both the oracle and the pyramids but I'm getting all the other wonders that I want now.

[Wild Pig UK]

Ghen's experience is probably typical. You have to work to get them fighting, but once it happens, you'll dominate.

I often miss out on the oracle, stonehenge and the pyramids. I don't even attempt to build them (even though I have an industrious civ) unless it takes under 20 turns for pyramids and oracle, 10 for stonehenge, after I have made 2 settlers and 2 workers.

With the aggressive civs, I try to give them techs like polytheism as a gift. Not only does it keep them from attacking you, it makes them much more likely to declare war for techs. Was just playing a game right now where I gave Julius Caesar polytheism as a gift. Prior to the gift, all declare war options were "redded out". Once I gave the gift, all declare war options went white, and I was able to send Caesar to war with the point leader for 2 cheap techs.

[Golden Bear]

I spotted this thread yesterday and gave it a try: Bismarck, pangaea, Prince, normal speed.

Things flowed pretty much as described in the early game. There was a sort of confused lull after getting the three start cities up to speed, but things recovered with a little guidance.

No one would take alphabet in exchange for declaring war. I ended up holding on to alphabet for quite a while before selling it around for quite a lot of cash.

The big step, as far as I was concerned, was to specialize the one city to generate scientists. Once that started happening, my tech growth skyrocketed. Finally I was able to trade multiple techs to other civs to start wars.

Overall I am pretty pleased with the flow of the game... I missed Oracle but have gotten all of the other wonders and tech freebies that I have wanted, including four religions. I think that I have been build heavy and should be taking advantage of some of the wars that I have fomented so that I can expand at my neighbors' expenses.