Spies' lateness

[snafuc4]

Why is it in Civ2/3/4 spies have appeared so late in the game? Surely their powerful effect could be countered with promotions (for instance)?

In Civ2 you had some basic spying abilities through diplomats, with occasional benefits at a horriffic attrition cost (eg stealing techs), then spies were introduced later, with better chances to do the basics plus a counterespionage chance

In Civ3 you only had spies, introduced too late (& after a Wonder build) to have /much/ effect, but OK, they still had a reasonable range of tasks to perform & still had that counterespionage 'trait'. There was some sort of promotion ladder (or at least the unit screen gane that impression), but I'm damned if I can work out how it worked - none of mine ever achieved more than 'regular' status despite what they succeeded at

In Civ4 spies are introduced incredibly late, have to have a very expensive local wonder built, can only be built in the city that has the wonder, have only 3 missions (sabotage only) + counterespionage, & cost 3/4 as much as an infantryman to build! Where is the potential for using spies? Where is the covert gain of intelligence (in game terms, maps/techs)? While I appreciate the need for the lack of rabble-rousing (via spies, as it seems to be done by culture now) in the new game, it's sorely missed!

In RL (yes I know the arguments, thanks) spies were being used in the Phoenican & Trojan wars, by Caesar & Pompey, etc etc simply to gain partial maps & knowledge of troop movements. By the Middle Ages when naval power & discovery (of trade routes & resources such as sugar & spices) were the rage, maps were frequently targeted by spies. In the Renaissance spies were used to uncover revolutionaries, or spur them on..

Can we have a 'progressive' spy unit, that can gain promotions/upgrades relevant to its class and/or time period, that is available in the early game (perhaps similar to a Civ2 diplomat with its abilities being promoted to a Civ2/3 spy with /its/ abilities)? IMO this would be /far/ more useful than the dead-end scout/explorer unit we have ATM..

[EDIT] removed erroneous +4cpt/unit reference [/EDIT]

[Shogun Gunner]

Good OP.

I would clarify that the major changes occurred from civ2 to civ3 when spies where abstracted. I was not a big fan of that. The spy screen was pretty bland. Look at cities, steal techs, counter espionage -- boring compared to the "poison city water supply" enjoyed by the civ2 spy unit.

In this regard, the return to a spy unit in cIV is very welcomed. You make an excellent case for an earlier introduction of the unit in cIV being a good suggestion and a promotion system would really raise the sophistication of the feature.

This is something I would support. Nice post.

[BigWilly1974]

I've not used a single spy unit yet. I find that by the time I have the ability to even create a spy (which is not every game as I don't typically value that tech a whole lot), it's either too late to make good use of them, or the game's sufficiently in hand it's too late to make good use of them.

[Diadem]

Yeah, spies used to be more fun. I guess they were overpowered though, so I understand nerfing them. They might have gone a bit too far in the nerfing, though.

And I surely miss the "Plant nuclear device" you had in civ2. So awesome. "Mysterious Nuclear Blast in Rome. Aztec influence suspected". Brilliant. One turn later my governement collapses and every civilization in the world declares war on me. Two turns later order is restored as the fundamentalists take over, soaking the world in blood in a Jihad that reaches the furthest corners of the world.

Now *that* was a fun usage of spies.

[platypotamus]

A Mod like that would be cool, but it would probably have to wait for the SDK, or the AI wouldn't know how to deal with it.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Diadem
Yeah, spies used to be more fun. I guess they were overpowered though, so I understand nerfing them. They might have gone a bit too far in the nerfing, though.

And I surely miss the "Plant nuclear device" you had in civ2. So awesome. "Mysterious Nuclear Blast in Rome. Aztec influence suspected". Brilliant. One turn later my governement collapses and every civilization in the world declares war on me. Two turns later order is restored as the fundamentalists take over, soaking the world in blood in a Jihad that reaches the furthest corners of the world.

Now *that* was a fun usage of spies.

Now that you mention it, I really miss the Newspaper Headlines of Civ 2.

ACK!

[Hauptman]

If you guys havent used spies then your just silly....

Make a spy, plant it in a city, and LOOK at all that info you get...

You can see what tech they are researching, how far away it is, what they are building and how long it will take. Even what there research rate is. Basicly it lets you look at that city as if it were your own. That feature alone makes them worth it.

Now if your "freindly" neighbor only has 1 aluminum or 1 oil, I would be worth your time to invest in a couple spies to keep that alum. or oil etc pillaged. It isnt an act of war but can cause dislike.

Especially important against Mansa Munsa and his supernatural space ship manufacturing.... Wait for him to almost finish that expensive part then, BLAMMO oops all gone.

also since they cannot be seen or countered they make excelent recon units. I can see an enemies entire country and know what they have where long before you invade.


They have some good uses.

[BigWilly1974]

I don't think anyone's debating the usefulness of the spy unit...it's more a question of how late they come in the game.

Once I get into the late middle or late segment of the game, I'm teching for Mech Inf and Modern Armor. Because it's time to finish laying down the smack. Or there's the beeline for spaceship parts. While I don't have the tech tree in front of me to be absolutely sure on this...the tech required for spies is not complementary to those other key tech routes. Not to mention you need to build the wonder then to build spies...and in my opinion, they just come too late to really utilize them well in many games.

[Proteus_MST]

Yeah, it might be interesting to have at least a "spy light" during earlier centuries which wouldn´t be able to do any sabotage work, but at least would be able to travel unseen through enemy countries and gather information (maybe with much more limited informations on enemy cities than you´ve got with the normal spy, for example being able to see what a city produces at the moment but not being able to access the city screen for more information)

[Jaybe]

BTW, spies do not cost 4gpt.
Per the readme that came with the original game.

I was losing the space race to Cyrus yesterday (he had been several techs ahead). My spies found his progress, and IF I had saved up enough gold (6-7000 in an epic game) I Might have been able to sabotage his last piece before the end.

The AI is probably not very good at using spies. Otherwise I would also prefer they be introduced earlier (probably shortly after feudalism or thereabouts).

[snafuc4]

Ignore - see later post

[snafuc4]

Originally posted by Jaybe
BTW, spies do not cost 4gpt.
Per the readme that came with the original game.

So I see - apologies

[snafuc4]

Originally posted by Hauptman
You can see what tech they are researching, how far away it is, what they are building and how long it will take. Even what there research rate is. Basicly it lets you look at that city as if it were your own. That feature alone makes them worth it.

[...] also since they cannot be seen or countered they make excelent recon units.


They have some good uses.

I've never said they were /entirely/ usesless, simply that they appear too late to make use of their full potential (if they have much potential other than recon/sabotage, that is)

Spying is not about sabotage, that's for geurillas; it's not really about recon, that's for scouts (now /those/ ideas may be a useful path to send those redundant scout/explorer units on..). Spying is primarily about /information gathering/, & that's where this unit has increasingly decreased in value over the game's version upgrades

[Blake]

So, am I the only one who likes spies for well... spying?

It's as if most people don't know you can move a spy into an enemy city then open that city as if it were your own and see the full garison, the empire science/culture allocation, the current tech goal and progress, the cash stockpile and income per turn, the strategic resources available... and ofcourse the current build and progress.

Is all that information useless or something? Okay it's not GREAT in single player, but it's nice. In multiplayer this form of spying truly rules, it's nearly essential.

[Hobelhouse]

Here's an idea: a spy that gets tech upgrades, like a worker.

Say, the spy comes with Sabotage Improvement/City and the normal city watching action.
Suitcase nuke comes with Manhattan Project.
Biological Warfare comes with Biology.
X comes with Y, etc.