AI Cheating -> Result bored of game already

[work2much]

Well been playing Civ4 for a couple of weeks now, and have been playing Civ1-3 for longer than i can remember; however the 1 problem i always have is once i complete a game i just cannot get motivated to start a new one. all because increasing the difficultly simply corresponds to the AI cheating more, not actually getting smarter.

There just does not seem like much of a challenge/fun to a game where once you have mastered it on the medium difficultly levels and can beat the computer 9/10 times, uping it to the top 2 levels just is pointless when it just equals computer cheating ...

Before you all say it, i know the challenges of AI programing, andi am a CTO of a software dev house so know its not easy, however it really ruins Civ for me.

I have tried playing online, which is great, however given the nature/time required to play a good game of Civ it just does not flow very well ....and was a little frustrating having people come/go every 5mins

So unfortunatly until the AI SDK is released, if it ever is, the Civ4 disk is on the shelf collectiing dust while i search for a new game to play on my christmas break ......

[Crossfire]

Oh well, see ya.

[Solver]

It's not really the difficulty that motivates me to start a new game. As far as the AI goes, I just find an appropriate level for me, the one where I stand a good chance of winning but may also get my butt handed to me. It's the strategy that motivates me to start a new game. I want to try doing things in a different way, going for a different early gambit or a medieval research path. And then there's of course the matter of every game unfolding differently due to map and diplomacy...

[work2much]

Hi Solver, agree with your comments, however for me I really enjoy Civ when its a struggle with the AI constantly neck 2 neck against you, as that is when your strategy plays/tweaks/thinking comes in and the challenge is... but I just get despondent when the AI is killing you not by invoking better strategies, but simply cheating.

The challenge and enjoyment is when you are losing or trying to keep pace to someone purely due to their better plays, as that motivates me to get better, improve my strategies, and play again.

AI programming to that level is incredibly difficult, and the AI level on Civ4 is the best yet in the civ franchise, just would like to see AI being more of a focus then graphics at times ….Sa la vie

[Solver]

Well, I am glda to see that you know how complex AI programming is. I'm getting very ticked off when some people who know nothing about any programming criticize the AI.

However, yes, we all have to accept that with the current levels of technology, the AI needs some cheats to be competetive. At least the Civ4 cheats come in the fashion of reduced costs, not some stupid "speical abilities" like wonder instant-build.

It's not really fair to bring up the issue of focus on graphics or focus on the AI. I do myself want a good AI perhaps above all other elements, but the truth is that different people work on graphics and the AI, so it doesn't matter that much.

Try other multiplayer modes. I can understand dislike for standard simultaneous turn MP, but you may want to try PBEM or (hopefully in a month or so) Pitboss games. Multiplayer is, through its nature, more competitive, and since you play vs. humans, your wins and losses there certainly depend on who plays better.

[xxFlukexx]

Errr, exactly what games AI uses better strategy to thwart the player? Maybe chess and 'simplistic' games like that, but still doing over a trillion calculations in a second is cheating to a human.

At least Civ4 AI isn't like WC3 AI, which was double the gather rate, call it the hardest difficulty and call it a day, phew hard work.

A computer can never fairly beat me at Go, Poker, Civilization or Rise of Nations. I routinely challenge microsoft to creat a decent AI, but alas they don't return my emails.

Part of the fun is beating an opponent when you know they have a huge advantage vs you. Beating Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden on the highest difficulty is certainly not fair, you hack at a boss for ten minutes and he hits you twice and boom, dead. But when you beat it, phew that's fun. Maybe 5 hours of frustration for like 5 minutes of triumph, but that triumph is oh so sweet.

If you want to blame someone, blame video game reviewer dork megasites like ign and gamespot. Omg pretty graphics, 10/10! If Civ4 has the best AI ever and competitive without cheating, I would expect the exact same reviews as there are now, game reviews miss the ball on strategy games more than any other genre.

In conclusion, I wouldn't throw away Civ because the AI needs to cheat(and cheat like a desparate fiend) but I'd find a difficulty like Monarch which it does cheat but you can definetly use lots of different strategies to thwart the AI bonuses.

Civ4 is very fun when you find the correct difficulty. I had a great game on Emperor where me and Hatty had this huge military buildup, 350+ units each by 1900 and we started hacking at each other, until dumb ol' Roosevelt launched a spaceship. Could I have easily won on Monarch and lower or if the AI didn't get gigantic bonuses? Sure, but if the cheating AI is the best challenge until the AI SDK, I will take it.

[Dis]

a problem I have is one difficulty level is too easy, while the next one up is too difficult to me. On one I easily win all my games, on the other I lose all my games.

I guess I'll resort to playing with more difficult settings on the easier level.

[MasterDave]

Originally posted by Solver
Try other multiplayer modes. I can understand dislike for standard simultaneous turn MP, but you may want to try PBEM or (hopefully in a month or so) Pitboss games. Multiplayer is, through its nature, more competitive, and since you play vs. humans, your wins and losses there certainly depend on who plays better.

Hmm, I had almost forgotten about the "Pitboss" games. The Lamespy internet lobby has been very disappointing for the five weeks or so I have been playing there. I found out that I can host games of seven people fairly well, but I can hardly ever join them due to connecting to peer timeouts. Also if I drop from a game I am hosting due to a crash or an out of sync, that game no longer appears on the list of running games on Lamespy, so I cannot get back in.

Solver, as a beta tester, could you describe how the "pitboss" games would be different from the Lamespy games? Civ Multiplayer can be a blast when technical issues are not getting in the way, and hopefully pitboss could provide a more stable platform.

[Solver]

If you want to blame someone, blame video game reviewer dork megasites like ign and gamespot. Omg pretty graphics, 10/10! If Civ4 has the best AI ever and competitive without cheating, I would expect the exact same reviews as there are now, game reviews miss the ball on strategy games more than any other genre.

That is a fair point... besides, these guys test strategy games on the lowest difficulties anyway and miss the point of the AI.

Then again, Civ4 has a great AI by reasonable standards. It's fairly good economically, and most important, it's feature-complete, as in aware of all game concepts. How the development could be improved would be, of course, to have a separate team dedicated to AI coding, but that isn't possible, unfortunately.

If all you want is awesome AI... play chess vs. a computer and then say how it is. No one here can beat the best chess algorithms out there.


Dave:

Connectivity issues are an annoying thing, but you should remain hopeful about the upcoming fixes, which will, hopefully, fix most lobby issues.

PitBoss, I can't remember what has been said about it publically, so I won't describe it as I don't want to violate my NDA. But generally, PitBoss is the best from PBEM and normal MP. So one thing is long games becoming feasible, and another is no need to hurry/play quickly. Anyhow, PitBoss should be a good alternative to try for those not entirely satisifed by the standard MP.

[GodSpawn]

(To OP)

A handicap is not cheating!

Would you consider it cheating in Go when you have a two stone advantage to even the game? Or a handicap in Golf?

Ok, you may not like the fact that you have to use a handicap to give your opponent an even chance of beating you, but that doesn't make it cheating!

[work2much]

Thanks for comments, in respect to AI the only way we will break to the next level of AI programming is if the AI is released to open source, like is rumored to be happening for Civ if they release an AI SDK.

My comment about graphics vs AI is in tune to the comment about reviews, where xxFlukexx has hit the nail on the head where a game reviewer will give a game high scores for graphics, and a minor mention to AI.

By far the Civ4 AI is the best yet in the Civ franchise, no doubts there, however it is open source which provides the real opportunity to break the envelop as such and give us the next level of challenge; while an inhouse development, such as take2, only has a limited budget and timeframe, open source has an unlimited resource pool.

Anyways, will wait to see what happens ….

[Falconne]

This is the same problem I have with Civ.

I've got to try Galacatic Civilizations sometime, which people say has an excellent AI. But I'm put off by the space/sci fi theme; picking off randomly scattered planets to settle is not as fun as looking for stretegic terrain on a single planet.

[vee4473]

Originally posted by work2much

By far the Civ4 AI is the best yet in the Civ franchise, no doubts there, however it is open source which provides the real opportunity to break the envelop as such and give us the next level of challenge; while an inhouse development, such as take2, only has a limited budget and timeframe, open source has an unlimited resource pool.

Interesting comment. There is alot of talent out there that may be able to advance things to the level that seems impossible. The more opportunity you give, the better.

Just because a dev. may not have the time or resources to do it, doesn't mean that it can't be done. Unknowns are out there that may have the answer. Harkonnens patch seems to be an example of that.

[Falconne]

Originally posted by work2much

By far the Civ4 AI is the best yet in the Civ franchise, no doubts there, however it is open source which provides the real opportunity to break the envelop as such and give us the next level of challenge; while an inhouse development, such as take2, only has a limited budget and timeframe, open source has an unlimited resource pool.

Nitpicking I know, but they're just releasing the SDK for the AI, not the source.

It would be cool if it's flexible enough to allow multiple AI implementations within the same game. Then we could use "survival of the fittest" tests to evaluate all the implementations that will eventually get written: i.e. pit the various AI implementations against each other in games where each civ is controlled by a different custom AI and see whose AI is best.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Dis
a problem I have is one difficulty level is too easy, while the next one up is too difficult to me. On one I easily win all my games, on the other I lose all my games.

Maybe they can add "custom difficulty level" in the next patch. The player can set a number of sliders, including starting units, production and research speed, etc.

This sounds like fun.