Is a Golden Age worth it?

[rjmatsleepers]

OK, so you get a short term boost to research and production. However, if you make the two GPs into superspecialists the boost you get lasts the rest of the game (doesn't it?) Alternatively, you can get a lot of research by using them to discover a new technology. And there's your religion's special building or a culture bomb if one of them is a Great Artist.

What am I missing? Is there some technique to get more out of a golden age?

RJM at Sleeper's

[MoonWolf]

I really don't feel it is anymore... The Golden simply just don't pay off unless you are really breeding Great Persons. I also feel the GA was giving more in Civ3 than Civ4; not is the duration shorter, but I also feel (note: feel, haven't investigated it) that the extra gold and production is lowered.

[Derelict]

Re: Is a Golden Age worth it?

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
OK, so you get a short term boost to research and production. However, if you make the two GPs into superspecialists the boost you get lasts the rest of the game (doesn't it?) Alternatively, you can get a lot of research by using them to discover a new technology. And there's your religion's special building or a culture bomb if one of them is a Great Artist.

What am I missing? Is there some technique to get more out of a golden age?

RJM at Sleeper's

If you make the two GP's into super-specialists, sure you get a bonus for the rest of the game relative to their types. However, 8 turns (normal speed that is) of increased commerce from every city means an accelerated rate of research and/or income. If you have many cities, in particular, I find it hard to imagine that two specialists used to discover a tech or as super specialists could generate as much as an entire civ-wide increase from your cities, for commerce or research.

Alongside, of course, is the production boost--+1 hammer in any worked tile already producing a hammer. I've noticed that the AI frequently uses a golden age as a starting point in going to war--with the added civ-wide production they can potentially out produce an enemy, in terms of straight military production--and ideally make some gains more easily. I imagine the same holds true for a human, especially if you take the time to refocus some cities more fully to production. Consider how fast you could produce your more expensive units with the production bonus and being in Police State...could be quite substantial.

I guess it comes down to the size of your civ, perhaps. More cities means that any single golden age will provide that much more commerce/research/production. It could offer the chance to really establish a tech lead (or be on your way towards one), or to rapidly knock out some production centered goal virtually empire wide.

The other thing to consider is that a golden age may pay off more in the later game, when GP's aren't able to completely discover a tech or would not be as meaningful by making them into super-specialists.

It'd be nice to analyze at greater depth just how much of an impact a golden age provides, in relation to the other options, though I'm not sure how one would go about such a thing in a reliable way. There is probably some city # threshold where it becomes wise to trigger a golden age as opposed to using the GP's in some other manner.

Maybe the starting place is to ask how people are currently using Golden Ages, such as what they build or focus on when they have triggered one.

[johnmcd]

I would trigger one right at the end as it’s the only way to artificially speed up space ship production, besides chopping, that I can think of. Otherwise it’s just a temporary fix, if you are being out researched a golden age might paper over the cracks for a few turns, but it’s not going to address the reason for being left behind.

[Handel]

In one of my games on prince the inca was 100+points behind me. Then they got 2 GP at the same turn in the same city (I guess they researched something wich gave them a free GP) and they started a GA. 3-4 turns after the end of the GA they were more then 200 points ahead of me! And I couldn't even start a war because they were strongly ahead in the war techs with grenadiers and cavalry agains my macemen and knights.

[Blake]

Hmmm, goldenage versus Great Merchant cash bomb should be fairly easy to compare. Except it'd be two cash bombs, can a golden age compare with a value of like 5000 gold?

Actually should be easily calculatable:
Assume a +100% multiplier for raw commerce. Lets just assume each raw commerce and each raw hammer = 2 gold.

A GA gives +1 hammer or commerce for each tile already producing a hammer or commerce. Lets assume every tile creates either a hammer or commerce, and 1/3rd of them produce both.

Assume each city works 15 tiles, and thus gains 20 free resources each turn. Over the course of 8 turns, that would be 320 "gold in the hand" equivilant.

To get the same benefit as 5000 cash in the hand from cashing in, you'd need ~16 of these generic cities.

Some of my assumptions might be a bit questionable, but I'd say that if you have less than 150 total tiles being worked, you'd be better off "cashing in" the individual great people.

200 tiles worked would be where it starts being profitable to GA with 2 great people. So prehaps as a rule of thumb:
If you have more than 100 tiles being worked for every great person needed, then a GA is worthwhile. So for your 3rd GA (four GP), you'd want 400 tiles being worked, or 20 size 20 cities.


Another interesting case study might be building the spaceship in a OCC, and great prophets. How does +2 hammers over the entire construction of the spaceship compare with saving them for a GA while building a critical component? (probably the 2nd to last one, to also speed up research to the final component).

[Handel]

Originally posted by Blake
Hmmm, goldenage versus Great Merchant cash bomb should be fairly easy to compare. Expect it'd be two cash bombs, can a golden age compare with a value of like 5000 gold?

Actually should be easily calculatable:
Assume a +100% multiplier for raw commerce. Lets just assume each raw commerce and each raw hammer = 2 gold.

In my case the inca have financial leader too. Which means every square with 1 commerce produced 3 commerce, not 2.

Edit: Besides there is something extremely important - the Great Merchant gives cash in the hand, but don't increase research untill the increased commerce directly increases research.

[Aeson]

I really like how a GA can speed up mobilization in cases where you can't just upgrade. But only if you're planning on using those units ASAP. Getting together a force a few turns faster (or a larger force in the same timeframe) can mean all the difference in the world for rush tactics.

[solo]

No!!!

With minor exceptions (first Scientist builds the Academy or an Engineer appears just in time to rush a wonder you might otherwise be beat to, or an Artist appears when your culture is at about 1000 points.). Use them all as Super Specialists!

In my last OCC game I did this, and near the end my city was generating about 400 beakers at zero science, and my base hammers had been boosted to about 60.

Those little bonuses really add up over the span of a game, while a Golden Age only lasts 8 pitiful turns and consumes at least 2 GP's.

[Kriegsspieler]

I too am not a fan of Golden Ages, although I should add that I have not examined them very carefully in the late game, when their net effect on all of my cities could be quite significant. (Most of time, playing on "prince" level, I give up before the end!)

Like the previous poster I prefer to employ my GA's as superspecialists, except in cases where a Great Artist helps seal off a rival from expanding in a direction I want to prevent.

[Hauptman]

The ONLY time i use golden age, is when i build the Taj MaHal.

The 8 turns is too weak to consider for using up 2+ GPs.

Now if i happen to getan artist and "omg ANOTHER prophet" When i really dont need them, I might toy with the idea, Usually i NEED them.

[Arrian]

I've settled on this:

GA fired by 2 GP, sure, ok. I like it in the late medieval... as I push for stuff like Nationalism & Liberalism. Preferrably with a Prophet and an Artist.

GA fired by 3 GP, no.

GA fired by Taj Mahal - ahh, the best. You get one, some AI doesn't.

-Arrian

[Artuero]

I have only used a golden age when in the very late game and I have something like a prophet and a scientist that I can't make much use of.

[gdgrimm]

I've only used a GA once. It was in the Noble game I finished last night.

Triggered it late game (was about to start building the Spaceship), with a Prophet and an Engineer. Once I found out an Engineer couldn't be used to rush a SS component, I figured I may as well go with the GA.

Coincidentally, the GP triggered GA ended with me completing the Taj Mahal, and getting another 8 turns of GA.

I had about 12 cities, all well developed, and I think the GA's did greatly accellerate the SS process, for both building and researching.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure if it was needed. I was so far ahead of the English that I'd have beat them anyway.

[Sauron07]

Here are a couple of factors that affect the value of a golden age relative to the other potential uses of a great person that I haven't seen discussed yet.

1. First and foremost is how far into the game you are. Many of the alternative uses for great people (super specialists, acadamies, shrines, rushed wonders) generate per turn benefits that continue for the remainder of the game, and if utilized early enough appear (I haven't crunched the numbers but agree with general consensus) to be a better investment than using the GP for a golden age. However, as the number or remaining turns in the game decreases, and/or the number of cities you own increases the relative benefit of these uses goes down compared to one time boost (8 turn) from a golden age. The analysis which needs to be done is at what point in the game (both in terms of remaining turns and empire size) does a Golden Age produce more benefit than using the Great Person's alternative bonus'.

2. Unwanted Great People - In most cases, I try to control what type of Great people my cities will generate to coincide with my particular strategy for the game. One aspect of this I haven't seen discussed is that I almost invariably generate a super specialist or two which are not the type that I want/ need. I do try to control GP generation by specializing wonder location based upon the type of GP they create, but even with this the liklihood that you can put every great person you generate to optimal use is very low. This becomes more true later in the game when you have more cities generating GP points, and more sources for those points(specialists/super spec., wonders, representation, etc.). No matter how much I plan, I seem to get an innoppurtune great person or two (i.e. a priest after I have founded my shrine and learned the religious techs, or an artist when I'm not at war etc.). In these instances the benefits from a Golden Age can easily outweigh the unwanted tech or the superspecialist of the wrong type (who could negatively affect your chances of getting the "right" great person the next time around).



Good thread by the way, I find these strategic choices the aspect of civ which keeps me coming back. Sites like Apolyton make this even more true by being a place to theorize and get constructive feedback.