Cavarly rush: Too good?

[Dis]

shhh, we don't need Firaxis nerfing the combat system even more.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Yuufo
It seemed logical to me that gunpowder allows to build Cannons... or maybe Chemistry, I don't know. But something has to be done, coz the first Cannons were invented in the 16th century I think... (i m talking about real life) and both Galleons and Frigates were loaded with them.

Cannon and guns were pretty much developed at the same time, so this would make sense.

The main problem is that there should be 2-3 more seige weapons. A trebechet, early cannon, and perhaps another more modern artillery. Having only 3 such units really limits where they can place them. An early cannon would be too primitive for riflemen...though that have the same trouble with armies of riflemen often using catapults as it currently stands. Certainly just one more unit could get rid of that oddity.

-Drachasor

[Diadem]

Yeah, cannons come a bit late. And perhaps artillery comes a bit early, only a few techs after cannons. What also is a problem is that there is no better siege weapon that basic artillery.

When you first get them, they are awesome. 18 strength while your main troops (cavalry) only have 15. They blast through anything.

Then by the end of the game, you have modern armors and mechinfs ruling the battlefield. That's 40 and 32 strength. And your siege weapons still only have 18 strength.

But you still need siege weapons, against large stacks. But with 18 vs. 40 strength they've basicly become suicide weapons. You throw 10 against a large stack, then mop them up with your own modern armors. You win the battle, but most of your artilleries have died.

There should be 'modern artillery' units or something. It's just not right for early 20th century artillery to be up against modern armors and stealth bombers.

Also why does my artillery have the same range as a primitive archer. Archers had a range of a few hundred meters. Modern artillery can hit a target 40 km away with a precision of a few meters.

[dschur]

Point 1) Realism
This is trying to get back to the Spear beats Tank argument that has existed forever. The answer is the same, it's not a wargame, its not realistic.

Point 2) Too few "steps"
I think the promotion system does do a decent job of "simulating" changes in effectiveness over time. So the early cannon gets better with promotions, filling in those inbetween spaces. Not perfectly I'll admit, and this gets a little lost with the preservation of upgrades, but it does provide something.

Point 3) Obsolete vs Armor
Artillery SHOULD be obsoleted by Modern Armor. Anyone remember the big artillery program that cot cancelled a few years back? Crusader I think (god, that would have been a bit hit in Iraq with that name). In the modern world Artillery should be mostly replaced by Mechanized infantry and air power as a counter to Armor.

Point 4) Ranges
Yea, I miss the old bombard. That covered ranges pretty well on upgraded artillery. I guess if I excuse realism once, I have to excuse it here too :-(

[xxFlukexx]

Nah I don't think a 'cavalry' rush is too strong or anything. The AI grabs rifling very quickly. And cavalry can have a hard time vs musketmen with city defense promos.

Going for cavalry that early means delaying some very tempting techs like liberalism(free tech + good civics) economics(free grat merchant + free market) Corportaion, Astronomy, Printing Press, Replaceable Parts.

After you research Paper the tech tree becomes as interesting as it was at the start of the game, beelining for cavalry is something I always do as Cathy/Russia(because Cossacks are god incarnate) but for other nations I'd shoot for liberalism if you have a shot at the free tech or go for grenadiers, Chemistry is much cheaper than Military Tradition as well as grenadiers compared to cavalry.

Yeah I think we need another siege weapon in there somewhere between catapults and cannons, but since we mainly use siege for suicide missions, it doesn't really matter that much. It does bug me a little when my Infantry army carries around catalpults, that's weird.

[Ezy]

cavelry can be stoped by pikeman, i did when ai was attaking me, they had 2 promotions at the start
remeber cavelry does not get deffence bonus
so 6 str +100% vs cavelry is 12 + a bonus u get them,
granted they did not kill them all the time but then they cost like about a half, so i was pomping them out way faster then they did cavelry and when i used them in defending town i was killing cavelry most of the time,

this will work agains a AI but AI will have a hard time using it agains u, if you know what u are doing and look at what kind of army he has

i also agree that the game should have atlist one more sige weapon, the upgrade cost from cat. to cannon are insane (due to hammer difference) and by the end the catapults are realy bad, duing only 5%-7% dmg and diying 97.23221% of the time , well you know what i mean they can still break the walls and i usualy have loads of them but unlike all my other units i dont upgrade them to cannons, very few of them, unlike all my other units

I find it great when i have a rifelman/granidies with almost 100% vs town, a full army of them

(i am a warmonger and most of my units are promoted to take out towns)

i have not tried the cav rush and like some one alreay said there are so many sweit techs at the time that i dilay doing it

[Dog of Justice]

Anyone try this strategy with a Great Merchant (generated via Caste System) and mass production of War Elephants? I think this increases the potency of the strategy quite a bit (if you've got the Ivory, of course).

[xxFlukexx]

Errr, not really, DoJ, to upgrade an ele-> cavalry I need 205g per and to upgrade knights -> cavalry I need 115g per.

60 hammers for a ele x3= 180 hammers + 615g for 3 cavalry
90 hammers for a knight x2 = 180 hammers + 230g for 2 cavalry
90 hammers for a knight x3 = 270 hammers + 345g for 3 cavalry.

Even a horse archer takes only 235g per upgrade to cavalry
50 hammers for a horse archer x3= 150 hammers + 705g = 3 cavalry.

It's much cheaper gold wise to upgrade knights and cheaper hammer wise to upgrade horse archers. Besides I don't usually get ivory and trading for ivory is usually a very bad trade, not impossible like iron but still usually need to give up 2-3 resources for one ivory. It's a much faster trip to Gunpowder for cavalry through guilds so I like to upgrade knights. Unless my numbers are wrong of course, then I need to change them.

[CiverDan]

I did the Mil Tradition beeling in a MP classical start games. Got Cossacks with 15 turns left while my closest oppenents were still usings longbows and pikes. MY southern neighbor managed to capture a city of mine a couple turns after that, but his attack quickly ground to a halt after it was taking 5 of his units to kill a cossack on flat land. Had the game gone longer i would have probably been able to pillage him fairly easily.

[Dog of Justice]

Originally posted by xxFlukexx
Errr, not really, DoJ, to upgrade an ele-> cavalry I need 205g per and to upgrade knights -> cavalry I need 115g per.

60 hammers for a ele x3= 180 hammers + 615g for 3 cavalry
90 hammers for a knight x2 = 180 hammers + 230g for 2 cavalry
90 hammers for a knight x3 = 270 hammers + 345g for 3 cavalry.

Even a horse archer takes only 235g per upgrade to cavalry
50 hammers for a horse archer x3= 150 hammers + 705g = 3 cavalry.

It's much cheaper gold wise to upgrade knights and cheaper hammer wise to upgrade horse archers. Besides I don't usually get ivory and trading for ivory is usually a very bad trade, not impossible like iron but still usually need to give up 2-3 resources for one ivory. It's a much faster trip to Gunpowder for cavalry through guilds so I like to upgrade knights. Unless my numbers are wrong of course, then I need to change them.

You can't upgrade Horse Archers directly to Cossacks, right?

My main point is that Guilds is completely out of the way of the rest of the MT beeline techs. The Education/Liberalism route saves you 1050 beakers times the game condition multiplier, and that's assuming you weren't going to get Mathematics+Construction taking the Guilds route, plus you get to start building proto-Cossacks far earlier. Yes, War Elephants are expensive to upgrade, but can't you afford it with both a Great Merchant and perhaps a 0% science rate for several turns after you've finished your beeline? I think this route gives you the most Cossacks in the least time, if you've got the Ivory.

If you don't have Ivory, of course, you can't use this strat. Just saying this is a way to exploit Ivory.

[joncnunn]

Well, my first note is that in addition to the above two techs, Calvary also require Horseback Riding. In my own games, the AI is slow to trade that one, so add it to your list of techs to reserach yourself [right before Guilds if you don't get it by then]

My second note is that the Pike 100% bonsus against mounted units also counts while attacking. In my own game I just wiped out a Keshik while attacking with little damage at all. [And got a promotion to boot]

My third note is that it appears that only one player on a standard map will get Ivory. They'll get a surplus since it clusters, but if played by an agressive AI, they won't trade it.

The good news of Calvary is that if your #1 getting it, you also have a good chance of being #1 to Riflemen defenders + cannons as seige weapons. It won't take many cannons to soften the towns units enough for Calvary to take the town, particularly if a couple of the Calvary units have gotten Flanking II and another has Sentry, and a unit of any type present has Medic I.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Drachasor
The tech tree probably should be modified some (such as Cav requiring Rifling). Part of the problem, however, is there are a number of sudden jumps in unit power. This didn't happen so much in real life. Even tanks started off as slow and awkward machines (in WWI). If there were 50% more units or so then military progression would be much smoother and a small advantage wouldn't be as devastating.

-Drachasor

Which would remove a lot of strategy, I imagine.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Which would remove a lot of strategy, I imagine.

Combined with an improved combat system (perhaps even a tactical interface for combat, but at least real army on army fighting), this would probably enhance strategy. True, it does diminish the "race to an advanced tech and then use it before the enemy does"-strategy. However, that strategy is sort of lame, overall. Sure, you should have an advantage if your tech is better, and you should have a chance for your tech to be much, much better. However, a 50% improvement in combat ability for being 1 or 2 techs ahead in one field of research is a bit much.

If combat was a bit more sensible and strategic in and off itself, then this would enhance the game overall, rather than diminish it.

*sigh* so many mods to make, so little time.

-Drachasor

[MotownDennis]

Cav are certainly not overpowered, IMO. If anything, I find them to be slightly underpowered (except for cossacks, of course). So much so that I usually don't even research MT. Rifles and infantry come quickly thereafter and, as some others have mentioned, there are a lot of juicy techs to gobble up in that particular area of the tech tree.

Mass-produced pikes and catapults can stop a cav stack dead in its tracks (long before you get around to any pillaging ).

It might be a good beeline at the lower levels, but on emperor and above, most of the AI will have rifles before you can gather any meaningful cav force.

[Shaka II]

The AI does seem to put priority on rifleman/infantry. There really is a narrow window of opportunity. On emperor, I generally don't have a commanding lead in tech at all, but perhaps with this bee line to MT it can work. Maybe using upgrading of horse archers or war elephants to accelerate.

Originally posted by joncnunn
My third note is that it appears that only one player on a standard map will get Ivory. They'll get a surplus since it clusters, but if played by an agressive AI, they won't trade it.
Medic I.

Looks like I'm that player. Three ivories alongside my river in Rome.