Expansion Ideas: Policeman Unit

[mjs0]

I really like this 'idea' (or some variation of it), let me explain why...

With many suggested features the issue that triggers an idea is often lost or hidden behind a specific implementation suggestion. Naturally a discussion ensues about the specific suggested solution rather than how to solve the identified deficiency. (In one of my past lives I was responsible for gathering and interpreting customer requirements for some very large and well known software products and saw this a LOT), There is a natural tendency to want to present a fully thought through feature when it is better in most cases to agree a principle and then flesh out the details.

In this case the actual issue (as I would interpret it):

- provide some game mechanic to remove the clear absurdity of continuing to fight with obsolete ancient units in significantly more modern eras

is hidden behind a specific implementation suggestion:

- Provide a way to upgrade ancient units to a police unit, etc...

or the more common suggestion for this issue:

- Ensure modern units cannot lose to ancient units (or some variation thereof)


The specific suggestion from the OP (policeman unit) is interesting and well thought out and I my initial response was positive. However on further thought some of it seems to run counter to the design objectives of removing micro-management and other game mechanics that are 'not fun' but just there for reasons such as realism or to overcome a flaw in another area.

The issue on the other hand is a real one (for some more than others). It irritates most people to some degree, even if only because of the amount of discussion it spurs. . So let's focus back on the underlying issue, which is most often characterized as the spearman v. tank issue but manifests itself in many other ways (knight v. Gunship, frigate v. battleship, etc...).

I realised quickly that one reason I liked the OP's suggestion initially is that it provides a potential alternative way of addressing the spearman v. tank issue rather then the ubiquitous 'just ensure the tank always wins' (and of course the ensuing endless "well it might not, but it should, but it might not..." discussions).

So..........

I would contend the simplest (from a game mechanic perspective) way of dealing with the issue is a derivative idea based loosely on the OP's creative suggestion.

In the same way that city appearance changes as new eras are entered, a way for the appearance (and thus perceived abilities) of ancient units to be dragged kicking and screaming into more modern eras is what is needed.

I personally would favour an automated approach that ensures as your civilization progresses through the ages that a natural progression occurs in the type and appearance of all your units. Of course it would make no sense to automatically upgrade warriors to infantry just because the tech is available but at least pull units from several eras back forward to some minimal unit based on more recent technology.

It is important to note that the actual name and/or characteristics of the resulting units for each era can be determined later it may be a militia, a national guard, or even a policeman, it may even vary by civilization (The US minutemen of the revolutionary war, the British Home Guard of WWII, etc...), but that level of detail is secondary to the underlying concept.

Also note that I am not suggesting wholesale upgrading at the beginning of each new era to a unit from that era, simply that, for example when I enter a certain era (such as medieval) units from the ancient era might be upgraded to a minimal classical era unit. This maintains a technological inferiority but not the absurd '3000BC Warrior defending 26 population 20th century metropolis' inferiority that we can reach today.

This approach avoids the spears cannot defeat tanks debate by ensuring it does not occur! In addition through automation it avoids placing any burden on the player to think about (or the AI to have to consider) modernizing standing armies just to avoid 'realism' issues.

OK, obviously more to flesh out but I wanted to be sure my reasoning was clear, and if looked on favourably the actual implementation detail could follow quite quickly I would hope.

Thoughts anyone.

Martin.

(And yes I am somewhat new to actually contributing here but have lurked fairly regularly since before the sites that predated Apolyton were merged, and have been playing CIV actively since Civ I on my first Amiga)

[Lawnmower233]

Forgive me I have only played the Demo but I am getting the game soon so I may show a lack of knowledge of the game mechanics. I was a huge fan of Civnet back in the day :P.

The few fragments I remember from history class suggest that during Hitler and his Third Reich's invasion of Poland the Pole's mounted cavalry led the counter-assault against the Axis's far superior tank's and infantry (maybe it was even world war 1, I can barely remember )

So my point is that a different "epoch's" or era's troops (cavalry) still existed in the confines of an industrialised Europe. Although the Cavalry stood no chance at all they still existed simultaneously with German tanks and other technological improvements. Therefore, although ages may not be relative in the game, in reality they were and just because it reaches *XXXX*AD doesn't mean suddenly the Gallic Swordsman is going to become a policeman.

I think that the fix for this problem shouldn't be to almost outlaw these units but, as someone said earlier, to make them have only a chance of one in several thousand of beating mechanised infantry and whatnot.

[Drachasor]

I think there's some (e.g. a lot)* sense to automatic updates to units. I'd say that the updates should basically keep the unit 3 or so generations behind the latest tech.

So, Archers->Long Bowmen/Crossbowmen->Musketmen**->Riflemen. So if you have Riflemen then all of your Archers get a free upgrade to Crossbowmen or Longbowmen. When you get Infrantry they become Musketmen. When you get Mechanized Infantry your primitive units become Riflemen.

So the units would still be dated, but only dated to the extent of "we don't spend much on our military, so they are basically using whatever they can buy at a store."

I suppose one could design a series of such upgrade units. I don't think they should really start appearing until gunpowder hits the scene though. Around then or with Riflemen is when Archers and Warriors should disappear. This might require tweaking the power level of units a bit.

So Knights and Cavalry would never automatically upgrade under such a system. Nor would Riflemen or higher units. Hmm, no artillery unit would ever upgrade either. Some oddities exist because some lines of units are very sparse in some or all areas (there are only 3 artillery units in the game, and after Knights there are only two "mounted" units). A mod that did automatic upgrading should, perhaps, add a few more units it. So, for example, you wouldn't have Knights next to tanks.

As far as humans are concerned however, upgrading a unit via production would basically eliminate outdated units. Why build a new unit when you can make a discounted advanced unit that has upgrades already?

-Drachasor

* : )

**Hmm, nothing actually upgrades to musketmen though, right?