Do you ever change religion to please another Civ?

[Shaka II]

Obviously, playing a spiritual Civ, you might rather fight than switch religion, but as I have never founded a religion, it isn’t of overriding importance to me.

Diplomacy is a key strategy aspect that I haven’t quite mastered, but am getting better at it. I spend some time going around the diplomacy screen checking on how each Civ views me and each other, to see how there might ways of gaining an advantage. I try to keep neighboring Civs with powerful armies away from the annoyed category, but even cautious is not always safe. Having a sizable army is key to reducing the chance that a sneak attack will occur. This is likely to occur as cultural borders press against each other, triggering a war. But in addition to border tension, the religious and other civic differences, past transgressions, etc. all have their contributions.

In the present game, I was getting ready to attack someone to expand my empire after I had amassed a significant army of praetorians, spearman, and catapults. I just wasn’t sure who would be the victim and how to avoid a situation where other Civs joined in to fight me. The French were the likely victims, but the size and strength of their horse archer army changed my mind, so I turned toward the smaller Egyptians, who the French had ravaged early on. Taking the weakest neighbor is a safe bet, unless they have powerful friends. As I prepared for battle, the Persians declared war on me from the other side of my empire, so they made the decision for me. They were in the cautious category, but our borders were causing much tension. So how to maximize my chances of success without having other Civs attack me from other fronts?

Unfortunately Tokagawa was on another border with much friction and he was upset at my choice of a heathen religion. The French were cautious, having moved up from annoyed. Perhaps they had gained respect for my Praetorians? So realizing my vulnerabilities, I decided to improve my standing with Tokagawa and changed from Buddhist to Hindu religions, and offered him a tech and some tribute. This brought him from annoyed to cautious and then to pleased after I canceled my trade relationship with England upon request. Likewise, I noticed that Louis had no love for Cyrus, and that he had attack Persia on the table. So my offer of Philosophy brought him and his army of horse archers into the war, remembering to open my borders for him.

It’s worked perfectly, and I’m mopping up the rest of Persia as Louis has made peace after having providing key support during the war’s critical stages.

That worked so well, that I see a rinse and repeat coming, where I will look to either Louis or Tokagawa to assist in dealing with the (tech leader) English, and ultimately, turning one against the other. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

So what ways do you use diplomacy? Do you ever change your civics, trade relations, etc. to gain favor?

[Quillan]

I'm finding that every single decision you make has to be based on the current circumstances. I can't ever seem to apply a hard and fast rule, because there's always something that might influence the decision. I usually do not change my religion/civics, but the majority of the time the AI demands that, they aren't really in a position to threaten me seriously. If they were, I'd consider it. (A pet peeve of mine with this game is when an AI civ demands that you cancel your trade deals with civilization X, you can't see just what deals you'll be giving up. You have to rely on memory to know that if you cancel your trade deals with Egypt at Tokugawa's request, you'll only be losing open borders, or you might be losing your access to iron, incense, dyes and silks along with it. I'd REALLY like to find out before I choose.) If I'm not in a position where I could safely ignore a demand, I might (and have at times) given in and changed.

It's better if you can change on your terms, but giving in to a demand tends to provide a positive diplomacy modifier.

[BigWilly1974]

I find that annoying also, not knowing what trade you'll be cancelling.

[Shaka II]

Yes, that is annoying, though in some cases, it's just as good to make the switch after the request. It's this way in the case of civics, religion, but I think other requests may not be, like a request for help during war. Not sure about trade cancellation upon request.

I wouldn't normally change a civic, but it goes under the category of giving in to AI requests until you are strong enough that their opinion of you doesn't matter anymore. I didn't take these requests that seriously until I started playing on emperor, and things got a lot tougher. Past transgressions, attacking civs who were friends, etc.

The last game I took a city or two from Peter of Russia early on. He never forgot that, so when a war broke out with Caesar, while I was starting to push him back, Peter invaded and I resigned at that point. Boy was he mad at me.

It just seems like so much is in the diplomacy, if it can be made to work for you. But I found it amusing to change my religion. Obviously, it was more important to Tokagawa than me.

[Blake]

Being on the right side of the dogpile can be very important. One thing is that I'd probably usually kill Tokugawa because he is weak and is an aloof ally anyway (even if/because he isn't terribly inclined to attack... he is THAT isolationist).

In some games I've deliberately formed extremely solid "pacts", utterly refusing all trade with non-pactmates, and automatically joining in any war with them. In one such game I was best friends with Genghis and Catherine, I was planning on befriending Genghis only but Catherine proved pathologically friendly with both me and Genghis so I let her in. (hint, check your potentional friends friends, the "what do you think of..." dialog in diplomacy is excellent, also when you go to war, check your friends enemies and make sure they all hate who you declare on)

With two warmongers on my side the other AI's got rolled very quickly. Then I spent most the game researching for the UN victory, both Genghis and Catherine proved completely loyal and peaceful throughout this period. Of course only one of them voted for me (because #2 always votes for himself), but I won anyway.


I'm most likely to change religion to please a violent religious neighbour like Isabella, religious allys are good to have on your side because they are very loyal. Non-religious allys like Mongols, Russians etc must be impressed by fighting with them, they do get the diplomacy bonus from religion, but it isn't enough to stop them backstabbing you. But after a couple of mutual military campaigns they'll be best buddies.

[Shaka II]

Those are some nice tips Blake. I haven't formed a pact yet, so that will be an interesting challenge. Yes, Tokagawa is isolationist and weak in the long term, but I can't afford a sneak attack when I can least afford it. I have played another game with him as a neighbor, so I did something similar. He attacked someone else, while I took out Russia and Germany by myself. The main thing I try to avoid is the dog pile when I'm the victim.

I play mostly Pangea maps, so there are usually 3 or 4 neighbors pushing on my cultural borders. Any one can decide he's had it with me. The old saying "never start a land war in Asia" is driven home on Pangea maps, but that's what makes it so much fun. The diplomacy has to be paid especially close attention to, because the enemy doesn't have to travel by boat to get you.

Originally posted by Blake
(hint, check your potentional friends friends, the "what do you think of..." dialog in diplomacy is excellent, also when you go to war, check your friends enemies and make sure they all hate who you declare on)

I have been checking this screen, which helped me decide who to befriend, how to improve my relations. Like you say, trying to make sure you are not attacking your friend's friend, rather your friend's enemy.

[Golden Bear]

I find that as I creep up the difficulty level, that it is necessary to make decisions. As you said earlier, figure out who you are going to align with and stick with them.

Of course, through a lot of the early game you just have to give in to demands in order to avoid getting deep on somebody's SList.

In a current game I shared a continent with 2 other civs only. One was much nicer to me than the other but also much weaker. When the stronger one demanded that I change religions (conveniently I owned both) I flipped right over. My thought was to keep peace on my one serious border whatever the cost.

It is difficult to make hard and fast rules for this aspect of diplomacy. However, if you are weak (like at the beginning of a higher difficulty game), try to appease as many AIs as you can. As you develop, pay attention to the likes/dislikes and choose your camp and stick to it.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by Golden Bear
It is difficult to make hard and fast rules for this aspect of diplomacy. However, if you are weak (like at the beginning of a higher difficulty game), try to appease as many AIs as you can. As you develop, pay attention to the likes/dislikes and choose your camp and stick to it.

I think having powerful allies or at least giving in to their requests in the early game is key.

In this game, fighting wars with Louis and Tokagawa on my side earned their respect, even if it was only to serve my needs, i.e., I paid them with technology.

While half way through my war with Persia, the clean up phase, Elizabeth, who was upset that I cancelled trade on Tokagawa's request, attacked me. Luckily, Tokagawa was available to join in, for a gift of technology. So Tokagawa, as isolationist as he is, is in the lead slightly, followed by Louis, Capac, and myself, all within 100 points.

After Tokagawa and I signed peace with Liz, Louis jumps in to start war with her. Just as well, because she was the tech leader. Her darn red coats were a bit too much for my grenadiers, so I made peace after taking Oxford. She had the nerve to ask me to help in a war with Louis after she attacked me.

With seven starting Civs, Egyptians eliminated by Louis, Persians about to be eliminated by me, and English probably being shared between Louis, Tokagawa and myself, the game is quickly heading toward four equal strength players, with my army still being the smallest, but with the largest empire. Luckily they are all friendly or pleased with me now, so now to catch up with building, tech advancement, and military growth.

I've switched to free religion, so Tokagawa isn't quite as friendly, but I can always change back to Hindu, so that we can be brothers of the same faith again.

Capac is on the other side of Louis and Tokagawa, so I might have to recruit him to help with taking out a neighbor, Tokagawa or Louis. One of them will have to go, starting with turning Louis and Tokagawa against each other. Louis is the more dangerous in my opinion. He's awfully good at capturing empires. I think he needs to go before he gets any more powerful. We'll see.

[gilfan]

By far the best strategy I've found to assuring success is founding a religion and very quickly spreading it to your neighbors. Especially if you'll playing on a map where all civs start on the same land mass, such as the terra maps (my favorite).

Without a doubt, the best place to fight a war is on someone else's property. Found a religion and spread it to your neghbors, such that anyone who wants to attack you will have to travel through your neighbor's territory to get to you. There's nothing I love more than having some civ declare war on me, then turning to my neighbors and politely asking them to declare war on my aggressor. Then the response, "Anything for a friend" The icing on the cake is the -1 modifier on my relations with the agressor "You brought in a war ally". Well you shouldn't have declared war on me, schmuck! ;p Now instead of a simple one on one fight, it's a three on one smackdown.


Two key things to make this strategy work... First, your priority is to spread the religion to all of your NEIGHBOR'S cities.... spreading it to your own can wait. You don't want them finding another religion they like better. Second, civs are inclined to adopt relgions if they possess the holy city. You should try very hard to found all the other religions in order to keep them out of other people's hands. Plus, it's pretty nice having 4 or 5 relgions... 4-5 temples per city does wonders for your happiness, culture, and specialists.

[Shaka II]

I'll have to play spiritual in a few games. The only game where I tried spiritual was with Mali (Mansa Musa), I was interested more in the Skirmisher and early conquest, so I pursued the bronze working tech. I'll try a few Civs with mysticism as a starting tech.

But I see your points about using religion to influence diplomacy and the direction of war. It sounds quite powerful in addition to being very profitable. Plus, all of that missionary work in foreign lands would be most revealing.

[gilfan]

Any civ that starts with mysticism is great for monopolizing the religions. Get Buddhism, Hinduism, Bronzeworking (for tree-chop rushing your settlers), and Monotheism, in that order. It's pretty common to get all three early religions to yourself that way.


After that, I'll pick up a hunting/fishing/animal husbandry as necessary to exploit nearby resources, then get priesthood and writing, then build the oracle. Use the free tech from the oracle to get theology, which you've now unlocked but would be very expensive to research on your own.


When I use this tactic with a civ that starts with mysticism, I often get 5-7 of the 7 religions under my control.


Inca or India are my favorite civs for this. Inca for Financial, and India for spiritual and fast workers.

[Hypatian]

Two things:

First, if you're a culture that's immune to anarchy, there's never any reason not to switch religions... You can switch right back on the same turn, and still get the bonus for having switched at their request. *cough*

Second, it *is* possible to check what trade deals you'll be giving up when a request comes in. If you're playing at higher than 1024x768 resolution, you can click on the foreign advisor to check how things are going on. If you're playing at 1024x768 and that icon is covered, you can use F4 to bring up the foreign advisor, anyway.

I really like to do this when somebody requests something of me--it lets me get a read on what all of the leaders think of the person I'm talking to, and the person they're asking me to stiff.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Hypatian
Two things:

First, if you're a culture that's immune to anarchy, there's never any reason not to switch religions... You can switch right back on the same turn, and still get the bonus for having switched at their request. *cough*

Second, it *is* possible to check what trade deals you'll be giving up when a request comes in. If you're playing at higher than 1024x768 resolution, you can click on the foreign advisor to check how things are going on. If you're playing at 1024x768 and that icon is covered, you can use F4 to bring up the foreign advisor, anyway.

I really like to do this when somebody requests something of me--it lets me get a read on what all of the leaders think of the person I'm talking to, and the person they're asking me to stiff.

*cough* indeed, if that's what spiritual civs can do. The other one (F4 when getting a demand) I can't wait to try, and if it works then praise be to thee.

[Quillan]

Thank you for that tip. I am indeed playing at 1024x768, and it never occurred to me that the shortcut keys would work when the button wasn't available onscreen.

[Thoth]

IIRC even with Spiritual, there is still a five turn period after changing civics during which you can't adjust them. I'm not sure if it applies to changing religeons or not.