Isn't there a better copy protection?

[gilfan]

Originally posted by Bhruic


At which point what's the point of having the copy protection to begin with? If you aren't even stopping 'casual users', all you are doing is annoying the customers who don't want to (or don't know how to) resort to no-cd cracks.

Bh

Because if they don't put some kind of copy protection in, then many, many more people will get their copies for free by borrowing a friend's cd and not buying the game.

You DON'T have a right to play the game without the cd. They DO have a right to be paid for the work they did in making the game.

[SirSebastian]

Originally posted by gilfan
from the company that made the game. if you borrow a friend's game, make a copy, and use a no cd crack so you can play it without buying it, you're a thief.

I respect your opinion, but don't you really mean that such a person violates the copyrights of the company that made the game? If you were to say that someone stole a game from me, I would assume that I didn't have the game anymore... because that's what the word steal means to me.

It seems odd that you say that a person who copies a game from a friend steals from the game company - the person you call a thief had no interaction with the company or any property of the company, and the company is not deprived of the game. Also, such a position raises some curious questions. What if the person later feels bad about the situation and deletes the game from their computer? Did they "steal" something and "give it back" ? Or were they "stealing" and are now "not stealing" ? Will you continue to label them a thief? What if they only delete it because they are bored with it, or by accident - does that matter?

[gilfan]

If I break into your house and steal your ps2, but give it back when I'm bored with the games, does that mean I'm not a thief anymore? No.

I'm not going to argue the semantics of this. It doesn't matter what the exact legal violation is. A few hundred people spents the years, effort, and cash it takes to make a computer game, box it up and put it on the shelves. If you make a copy from a friend without paying for it, you're a dirty thief.

[SirSebastian]

Originally posted by gilfan
If I break into your house and steal your ps2, but give it back when I'm bored with the games, does that mean I'm not a thief anymore? No.

If you steal my PS2, you have taken the PS2 away from me, and therefore I no longer have use of it. I think that if you carefully reflect upon the situation you will see how that isn't a valid comparison.

I'm not going to argue the semantics of this. It doesn't matter what the exact legal violation is. A few hundred people spents the years, effort, and cash it takes to make a computer game, box it up and put it on the shelves. If you make a copy from a friend without paying for it, you're a dirty thief.

I wasn't just trying to argue semantics, but I can see that we're just approaching it from very different points of view. Philosophically, I'd say these people simply belong to the entitlement culture created by our governments, and I find it difficult to blame them. To me, it's no different than an implicit tax that I pay that's built into the price of the game. I may find it annoying, but if I'm already paying for people's food, housing, and schooling, I'm not going to be any more annoyed at paying for a little entertainment to keep them happy. That the government declares some of this transfer of wealth illegal and some of it legal seems entirely artificial and pointless.

[gilfan]

Originally posted by SirSebastian

If you steal my PS2, you have taken the PS2 away from me, and therefore I no longer have use of it. I think that if you carefully reflect upon the situation you will see how that isn't a valid comparison.

And if you make a copy of the game without paying it, then you're taking money away from the people who developed and published the game.


You're right about it having to do with some people's sense of entitlement. However, I have no problem blaming people who think they have a right to things they didn't pay for. You DON'T have a right to steal the fruits of someone else's labor, even if you think it "doesn't hurt anyone". It does hurt people, it denies money to the people who created the game that is rightfully theirs. It doesn't matter how you justify it, you're deluding yourself. It's wrong, and you're a thief.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by gilfan
"Casual users" can be thieves, too.

As I said, at best they could only hope to stop casual users.

Originally posted by gilfan
When someone loans or borrows a game, then installs it and uses a no-cd crack, that's stealing too.

Nobody lost anything - what was stolen?

Originally posted by gilfan
Game companies don't expect to stop hackers, but they do expect to stop the average person from making copies for his friends without paying for it.

It's so easily to copy from, um, a protected CD or DVD.

Copy protection upsets legit users. What if I misplace my CD? What if Spot gave it a nice crunch? I won't pay for another copy and I want to play my game.

[gilfan]

Yes, and that's why it's there, to stop the casual user from copying the game for his friends. Just because some people know where to find the tools to break the protection doesn't mean you don't protect it at all.

You're taking something of value without paying for it. If you can't see that that is wrong, then there is something wrong with you.


If you lose the cd, that's your own damned fault. If you lost a pair of sunglasses, would you expect the manufacturer to mail you a new pair? If spot chews up the disk, most publishers will replace the cd if you mail them the chewed up one. Neither of which is an unreasonable burden to put upon legitmate purchasers of the game.

[RalphTrickey]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

As I said, at best they could only hope to stop casual users.

That's probably 75% or more of the users of a game like this, I'd guess.

Nobody lost anything - what was stolen?

Intellectual property. Every wonder why it took so long for any good educational software to come out? That's because the people that tried to write it found out quickly that instead of selling one copy per teacher, you would sell one per school or, more likely, school system. With that business model, it was impossible to make any money, so nobody wrote any decent software for a long while. My dad and I tried.

It's so easily to copy from, um, a protected CD or DVD.

That's why the NWN modules require an online connection, Steam requires an online connection, and part of why Multiplayer is so popular. I expect that within 5 years, almost everything will be online or have an online component (or be console).

Copy protection upsets legit users. What if I misplace my CD? What if Spot gave it a nice crunch? I won't pay for another copy and I want to play my game.

If you misplace, it, I'd suggest that you have bigger problems. Most reputable sofware distributors used to replace the media for about $10 if you could prove that it was no longer functional. I'm not sure if that's the practice anymore.

It's Hobson's choice. I don't like disk based copy protection, but I'm not a big fan of any of the other choices either. Especially the black on purple key that some games used to use.

The technology is finally becoming stable enogh that a game has the possibility of lasting for several years, especially in the niche market. That's one thing that may change the landscape. Shops like Matrix Games encourage registration by being in a loyal niche market and by updating their software regularly. Shops like StarDock and Bioware have a unique model for distributing software, that provides value for people that have legitimate copies.

Ralph

[Yyrkroon]

I've become a fan of the online key method, myself.

What I would like to see is that it be coupled with the removal of the standard disc based method, though.

For example, take BattleField 2. There is no single player experience worth mentioning. In order to play online you must have a valid key based account. So, why on earth does it still require the disc?

I've used tools to get around that, but it would be nice to have act reasonably out of the box.

A game like CIV which does have a strong single player experience is a little different, but there can still be other non-traditional approaches that don't inconvenience the end user and push them to embrace the methods and means of pirates.

[Russian_King]

why dont u just burn an image of it on ur hard drive, put it up on alcohol 120% and use that? (u may need a program which hides the fact that the CD is not original, but hey its legal! u HAVE it dont u?)

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by gilfan
Yes, and that's why it's there, to stop the casual user from copying the game for his friends. Just because some people know where to find the tools to break the protection doesn't mean you don't protect it at all.

Copying the entire CD is child's play. I don't see how that can even deter causal users.

Originally posted by gilfan
You're taking something of value without paying for it. If you can't see that that is wrong, then there is something wrong with you.

You did not answer my question. What was stolen?

Originally posted by gilfan
If you lose the cd, that's your own damned fault. If you lost a pair of sunglasses, would you expect the manufacturer to mail you a new pair?

Your analogy doesn't work. Try something else.

Originally posted by gilfan
If spot chews up the disk, most publishers will replace the cd if you mail them the chewed up one. Neither of which is an unreasonable burden to put upon legitmate purchasers of the game.

I don't see any rationale of putting additional burdens on legit users.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by RalphTrickey
Intellectual property.

Please refrain from using such an ill-defined, confusing term.

Are you talking about copyright, patent, trademark, or trade secret?

Originally posted by RalphTrickey
Every wonder why it took so long for any good educational software to come out? That's because the people that tried to write it found out quickly that instead of selling one copy per teacher, you would sell one per school or, more likely, school system. With that business model, it was impossible to make any money, so nobody wrote any decent software for a long while. My dad and I tried.

OTOH, people are still paying forprograms such as WinZip, ACDSee, Ad-Aware, and AVG Anti-virus.

It is much more complicated than just somebody using your programs without paying you.

Originally posted by RalphTrickey
That's why the NWN modules require an online connection, Steam requires an online connection, and part of why Multiplayer is so popular.

How do we know that the Multiplayer wouldn't be more popular without copy protection?

Originally posted by RalphTrickey
Shops like StarDock and Bioware have a unique model for distributing software, that provides value for people that have legitimate copies.

If Stardock can make money on GalCiv without protection, maybe there's a lesson to be learned.

[Caltone]

Seems to me we're just discussing semantics. I'm looking at the EULA which says among other things:

****************************************

You agree not to:

(c) make copies of the software or any part thereof
(e) copy the software to a hard drive or other storage device and must run the software from the included CD-ROM or DVD-ROM ...

****************************************

Doing so puts you in violation of the copyright laws which is what gilfan has been saying (in his own way)

It's wrong to do these things and you agreed not to do so when you purchased the game. It doesn't matter if you disagree with the form of copy protection Civ4 uses. That was thier choice and you are bound by the license that came with the software when you purchased it.

Good points and I do like the route Stardock has chosen for copy protection. I also like Valve's and Matrix's model.

Personally I abhor having to carry CD's around with me. Civ is one of the few games that will run on my laptop (GalCiv2 will be another ) and I do travel frequently. So it's a pain but one I endure.

Speaking of endure, here it is nearly 2AM on a work night and I'm here reading the Civ forums after a long round of Civ.......again

[SirSebastian]

(c) make copies of the software or any part thereof

I haven't read the EULA but that sounds like just installing the game is a violation. We all clearly have parts of Civ IV on our computers...

[Henrik]

That eula isn't legaly binding anywhere except perhaps the united states

Infact it would be considered ilegal in many states in itself.