Why can't they get air-combat right?

[Sleestax]

Why has air combat been so messed-up in each civ? In the last civ air-air combat would cause lock-ups. This time around, I don't even see an "air superiority" mission or anything similar. I sent a stack of 3 jet fighters off a carrier onto a city with a circling WWII era fighter and one of my fighters is shot down, the other two bomb the city instead of attack the fighter? WTF?

Also, does it seem like the B-2 is not so stealthy? The same city, this time I give up on my fighters because I see no option for air-air combat, so I send in a stack of stealth bombers. One takes 78% damage from the fighter and another is shot down by a sam unit.

Also, what's the deal with the SAM units doing way more damage to air units than fighters? That's insanely backwards. Shoulder-fired SAMs and even mobile-unit SAMs are way less likely to shoot down a modern fighter. The Stinger is practically a total failure against all aircraft except helos.

I just can't take it anymore, after I finish this game. I am done with IV until the patch comes out.

[Stuie]

Re: Why can't they get air-combat right?

Originally posted by Sleestax
I just can't take it anymore, after I finish this game. I am done with IV until the patch comes out.

I have seen no indication that the patch will alter air combat in any appreciable form.

[Sleestax]

I really wonder why there is a fighter unit at all then? What's the point? Also, if they are taking out air-to-air fighting, then make the U.S. special unit the A-6 or something instead of the F-15 which is designed as an air superiority platform.

[Maquiladora]

The point of the fighter seems to be to intercept (when set to intercept) incoming attacks on cities from bombers or fighters, and attack sea (mainly) and ground units. This is quite important in the Desert War scenario.

[MattPilot]

The Stinger is practically a total failure against all aircraft except helos.

Really?




As for fighters.... They do have air to air combat. If a fighter on intercept mission actually succeedes in "intercepting" the aircraft, combat takes place. While i don't know the exact formula for it, there is a chance for the interceptor to be shot down by the intruder. That chance goes up the higher the attack strength is. I've had a few occasions where the enemy figher on patrol lost the combat roll. The defender, however, seems to get an inherent advantage.

The easiest way to engage in offensive air to air combat is to just send your own fighers on a bombard mission near the patrolling enemy fighter. A very smart thing to do would be to make sure there is no SAM unit in an adjacent square, otherwise you will just up your chances of getting wasted.

[Sleestax]

You can always come up with ways to play around the bugs and other features, but that's not the point of this thread. You can't even have escorts anymore for your bombers.

If the last major (U.S.) conflicts have shown us anything, it's that air supremecy is a great advantage prior to sending in bombers and/or ground units.

As it stands, I only see two ways that you can take out an Enemy fighter.

1. They attack you for some reason and your fighter/SAM unit intercepts.
2. You take over the city with ground units and the fighter is destroyed as a result.

We need a way to actively attack their fighters as a way of gaining air-supremecy prior to a ground assault.

[Sleestax]

Originally posted by MattPilot


Really?

Yes, really.

...The Stinger anti-aircraft missile, for example, was designed to hit incoming aircraft better than 60 percent of the time. But if it had been placed in service as originally designed, it would actually have achieved hits only 30 percent of the time when operated by soldiers in combat units. The Stinger’s problems were eventually corrected.

FAS

[Mace]

Originally posted by Sleestax
You can't even have escorts anymore for your bombers.

I'm confused by your criticisms. First of all, there IS air-to-air combat in Civ4. Secondly, in reference to your above statement, there never have been air escort missions in any Civ game ever. You post as if this is a feature that was removed.

Actually an air escort mission is a neat idea you have there.

Originally posted by Sleestax
1. They attack you for some reason and your fighter/SAM unit intercepts.
2. You take over the city with ground units and the fighter is destroyed as a result.

That's how it's always been in Civ. Plus you forgot:
3. Bomb the city with bombers.

That will also take out enemy fighters.

Originally posted by Sleestax
We need a way to actively attack their fighters as a way of gaining air-supremecy prior to a ground assault.

Well, you can. Bomb the city, the fighters have a chance to get hurt. I think you're onto something, in that this may not be the BEST way to implement "softening up" enemy air forces....

[Kidinnu]

When I'm playing Desert War, I use the same techniques that I think the Allies used during WW2: send six or eight bombers. Accept that a couple are going to get damaged, maybe even shot down. But once you take the town and destroy all the fighters, maybe your opponent will be a little less eager to forward-deploy all his air cover next time.

Also, recon missions seem to be intercepted much less often than attacks; I don't think I've ever been intercepted on one. Useful to scout out nearby cities to make sure the enemy doesn't have air cover deployed farther back.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Sleestax
I really wonder why there is a fighter unit at all then? What's the point? Also, if they are taking out air-to-air fighting, then make the U.S. special unit the A-6 or something instead of the F-15 which is designed as an air superiority platform.

F-15? I think you are thinking of civ3.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Sleestax
You can always come up with ways to play around the bugs and other features, but that's not the point of this thread. You can't even have escorts anymore for your bombers.

If the last major (U.S.) conflicts have shown us anything, it's that air supremecy is a great advantage prior to sending in bombers and/or ground units.

As it stands, I only see two ways that you can take out an Enemy fighter.

1. They attack you for some reason and your fighter/SAM unit intercepts.
2. You take over the city with ground units and the fighter is destroyed as a result.

We need a way to actively attack their fighters as a way of gaining air-supremecy prior to a ground assault.

I actually agree on this account. There should be an action button to achieve air superiority. To send in fighter units to attack enemy air units directly. Not to attack ground units, but only air units.

And I also don't see an option to attack any ships in port (correct me if I'm wrong on this). How are we supposed to model a pearl harbour attack?

[Sleestax]

Originally posted by Mace


I'm confused by your criticisms. First of all, there IS air-to-air combat in Civ4. Secondly, in reference to your above statement, there never have been air escort missions in any Civ game ever. You post as if this is a feature that was removed.

Perhaps I am remembering it wrong, but I thought in Civ III there was an "Air Superiority" setting for fighters that gave your fighters a chance to intercept other fighters at half of their operating range. I used this option to escort my bombers into battle.

Bombers flew over city, enemy fighter engages, my fighter engages enemy fighter. Sometimes I win, sometime I lose, but at least there was fighter-fighter combat and not just whatever defensive damage the bomber could do to the fighter.

Good point about attacking the fighter when it was on the ground. I forgot that one.

Doh to the special unit reminder! It's a SEAL in IV. whoops!