Aren't the siege units too powerfull?

[Handel]

Even the catapults are town killers. They are cheap and expendable and it doesn't matter if they die. Because the colateral damage is what counts. And besides they have a fair chance to retreat. I just took Saladin's capital. It was his last town and there were some 25+ units. I lost only 3 or 4 catapults and just 2 non-siege units both to the camel archers counter-attacks.

[Ansaga]

Well thats the point of the catapult... It is the AI's fault for leaving 25 units in one area he was asking for it.

[Blake]

Hummm I do think Catapults are a bit too effective against advanced units. I think there should be some kind of "Collateral Resilience" (a promotion) that for advanced units will completely negate collateral from ancient units. (with say Cannon vs Riflemen though, it would only be a 50% reduction at max rank)

2 ranks. Each rank reduces collateral damage by 5% of the units total strength, so the unit would need to take more than 10% of it's total strength in collateral damage per round before the damage starts to count.

To get a really good defender it would be necessary to have 4 promotions, for example Resliencex2 + City Defensex2 or Guerilla/Woodsmanx2.

This would be quite balanced because the OTHER units in the stack would still be taking the damage. It's just the enemy might have to lose a proper unit or 2 to kill off the resilient unit.

[Handel]

Maybe the colateral damage should be reduced to apply to 2 - 3 units only.

[swat-spas2]

I don't mind it. If you want it to only apply to a smaller stack, I could live with that if its in a city (particularily one with walls vs cats or cannon). It should scale upwards in # of units and damage with levels and of course the type of shells. Rocks aren't going to do much to a tank though.

The key is not the SoD problem, but rather that the AI still likes to leave a bunch of units in its cities, and they are subsequently slaughtered by ARTY or bombs before your troops even fire a shot. Another possible help against this problem would be a separation between unit "hp" and the hitting power. Damaged units of a better type should still have some effectiveness, albeit at a lesser rate...that would also limit the power of a suicide cat assault. This is more of a help-the-AI fix than anything else.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Blake
Hummm I do think Catapults are a bit too effective against advanced units. I think there should be some kind of "Collateral Resilience" (a promotion) that for advanced units will completely negate collateral from ancient units. (with say Cannon vs Riflemen though, it would only be a 50% reduction at max rank)

2 ranks. Each rank reduces collateral damage by 5% of the units total strength, so the unit would need to take more than 10% of it's total strength in collateral damage per round before the damage starts to count.

To get a really good defender it would be necessary to have 4 promotions, for example Resliencex2 + City Defensex2 or Guerilla/Woodsmanx2.

This would be quite balanced because the OTHER units in the stack would still be taking the damage. It's just the enemy might have to lose a proper unit or 2 to kill off the resilient unit.

this would be fixed with firepower (Dis bringing back the old Firepower debates/flames)

[FelisSilvestris]

Or have a building that reduces the collateral damage - just as bunkers reduce air damage. Perhaps even give bunkers that ability, while increasing their cost and moving them to an earlier tech.

[narmox]

so he had 25 units and didn't even counter-attack? Didn't even try to destroy your catapults or weaken your stacks (assuming you had some) with his own catapults?

He deserved his defeat lol.

[Handel]

He counter-attacked and used his catapults already before. But with just one unit with the promotion "Heal while moving" the colateral damage from his cats didn't really matter. Because I needed 4-5 turns to close the city anyway and my units came here almost at 100%. And this was his last town and his capital and those were his last units. He counter-attacked then with his camel-archers, but they are dead meat against pikemen.

BTW - in every computer game (no matter what the devs says) the AI always counts on the quantity, not on the tactics. Right now the persians have great empire in the tundra and snowlands. I don't know how it is possible to support 15 people towns in such conditions. And this is on prince level. I am afraid to even think what bonuses will have the AI on deity level.

[slebrun]

It quite accurately depicts that if you simply hole up, you will die.

There's a reason medieval castles all had sally ports and other ways to get out and hit siege equipment, and why they say that offence is the best defense. A town under siege needs to either be rescued, or break the siege itself.

[Markgraf]

Wow, on one hand you have people complaining that Firaxis gave the defense too much power in Civ4, making conquest nearly impossible. Now we have some complaining that siege units make attacking too easy. Which is it? It's hard, IMO, to get a conquest or domination victory. I guess if two sides are complaining then combat must be about right.

[Grumbold]

It comes down to unit mix as well as unit quantity. If Saladin had had some disposable cats of his own in that 25, he could easily have wiped out any stack that turned up to attack his city in just the same way you use cats to demolish his defence. In the long run, if you can have 5 cities producing cats to his one capital, you're going to win of course, but its cost you a lot of lost production compared to all your other opponents.