Gamesmanship and Strategy

[khearn]

Originally posted by cal_01


I once had Bears camping right next to my capital in the beginning. He promptly ate all my scouts and warriors.

Anyhow, the moral of the story was that I didn't quit even when both my first scout and warrior got eaten. I still pushed forward!

(I promptly quit after the 3rd scout got eaten though. :P)

They said I was a fool to attack a bear with a warrior, but I did it anyway! He got eaten.

So I built a scout and used him to attack the bear! He got eaten.

So I built another scout and used him to attack the bear! He got chased up a tree, pulled down, beaten up, had his lunch money stolen, got dismembered, and then eaten.

So I quit.

;-)

[khumak]

Originally posted by Jcg316
I've found barbarians to be just about meaningless. With Inca/Mali they're just free experience, with horses its much more common to take a few barbarians cities, when they occasionally build some, than to actually lose even one unit. Just having warriors and finding quick barb archers you may have to give up a couple units in a bad situation but as they are far too predictable you can usually just find a forest in their path and do fine.

For Inca/Mali that may be true but how well would you fare if you picked someone like Ghandi and wound up with no copper and no iron reachable for the first 4000 years or so? For me that's fairly common. The big problem with that is that I typically research Iron Working with enough time to build some axemen before the barbarian axemen start streaming in but NOT in time to also research the entire Hunting/Archer/Horse Archer path when I find out there's no Copper or Iron around. The only games I've lost so far I've been wiped out by barbarians early in the game. Usually at that point I have archers defending against Axemen. It's never been a real AI civ that stomped me.

[khumak]

Originally posted by Blake
Something I do want to talk about is risk vs reward, especially in Multiplayer.

It can be absolutely nessecary to take some risk if you want to do well*.

I totally agree. IMO the best strategies are the ones that still give you an advantage even if something goes wrong.

Take the Civil Service beeline as an example. Using that strategy you're basically taking 2 risks.

1. You're delaying research on military upgrades until after you get Civil Service so an early rush could be an issue. This is an issue for MP but not for SP except maybe if you wind up next to that genocidal bastard Montezuma

2. Someone might beat you to the Oracle. In that case you won't get Civil Service for awhile unless you significantly increase your risk by continuing the beeline without the free tech.

Let's look at the risk vs reward here. If everything goes as planned you have your main city with a huge advantage in both production and research which makes further research very easy. Obviously a nice start.

What if something goes wrong though? As I see it there's basically 3 things that could go wrong.

1 Only applies to MP. You find out early on that you're pretty close to a human civ and thus might have to contend with a rush. If you don't make a diversion for Archery or Bronzeworking you could be screwed.

2. You find out after researching Iron Working that you have no copper or Iron. Better get Horse Archers ASAP or those hordes of Barbarian Axemen are going to take you out.

3. Someone beats you to the Oracle. That sucks but it's not a big deal, you just don't get Civil Service for awhile. You still have your big research advantage, you just lose the production advantage you were hoping for.

[snafuc4]

Originally posted by khearn


They said I was a fool to attack a bear with a warrior, but I did it anyway! He got eaten.

So I built a scout and used him to attack the bear! He got eaten.

So I built another scout and used him to attack the bear! He got chased up a tree, pulled down, beaten up, had his lunch money stolen, got dismembered, and then eaten.

So I quit.

;-)

You're obviously not there for the hunting.. )

[GeoModder]

Oh boy, quite a rethink of strategy is in order for me.

For 3 times now I started with the Sumerian civ (mod) on Prince (my first tries on this level), and 3 times I got into a war in which the AI brings in numerous units on me.
Having 2 defenders/city is far from enough, which IS enough in noble for me. I appearantly should beeline to walls quicker instead of trying to culturize.
Granted that the neighbours were the Incans or the Aztec each time, but still.

[Jcg316]

For Inca/Mali that may be true but how well would you fare if you picked someone like Ghandi and wound up with no copper and no iron reachable for the first 4000 years or so? For me that's fairly common. The big problem with that is that I typically research Iron Working with enough time to build some axemen before the barbarian axemen start streaming in but NOT in time to also research the entire Hunting/Archer/Horse Archer path when I find out there's no Copper or Iron around. The only games I've lost so far I've been wiped out by barbarians early in the game. Usually at that point I have archers defending against Axemen. It's never been a real AI civ that stomped me.

I mean what I posted in regards to all civs, just mentioned Inca and Mali as their unique unit makes it even easier for those two specifically. Quechua will be antiquated by axemen but that is not until a ways through the early game.

Unless I'm going on the offensive I generally don't even worry about copper/iron. If I get it thats great but it isn't much of an issue as defensively archers will do nearly as well per hammer. You may have to make more but from the cheaper costs it won't be particularly damaging. If you ignore that aspect of the tech tree you will have longbowmen soon enough anyways.

Against a human player, the only resource that can have an immense impact fairly early is ivory, in my opinion. The sheer stats of elephants along with coming with catapults in the same tech is very, very good. Four elephants and a catapult can break most of even the best defended cities, at that point. Since you don't have to worry about barbarians having any of that there really isn't very much they can do against a handful of archers and later a longbowman or two. With a creative civ especially, as there will be less fog and more defense from culture bonuses sooner, you will have to deal with them for a far shorter period and/or in smaller numbers.

I generally don't bother gettig archery/feudalism unless the techs are only one step out of my way, I want vassalage, or sometimes raging barbs might force me to get some. That is occasional but often I'll have copper/iron/horses and it won't be an issue.

[Jcg316]

For 3 times now I started with the Sumerian civ (mod) on Prince (my first tries on this level), and 3 times I got into a war in which the AI brings in numerous units on me.
Having 2 defenders/city is far from enough, which IS enough in noble for me. I appearantly should beeline to walls quicker instead of trying to culturize.
Granted that the neighbours were the Incans or the Aztec each time, but still.

Because of how power ratings add up the AI will look at a ton of wimpy units being much better than a handful of the top units available. The AI is going to demand, threaten, and go to war with you at the drop of a hat if you have only a few units. When they come with a swarm of units and start destroying all your land it is tougher to try and attack any units they leave out in the country.

If you use your cities more specialized early, you can build a military unit after every building or every other building and stay up to par defensively while not losing as much in tech or anything else. A little later having one decent production city with the heroic epic can keep other civs seeing you as less of a pushover while still having the rest of your cities producing tech/wonders/etc.

[khumak]

Originally posted by Jcg316
Unless I'm going on the offensive I generally don't even worry about copper/iron. If I get it thats great but it isn't much of an issue as defensively archers will do nearly as well per hammer.

Yeah I've been burned enough times by barbarians that I no longer skip archers. I do still skip horse archers though most of the time. What I've noticed with archers though is that they can defend my cities but NOT my terrain improvements. Axemen can chew through archers outside of a city fairly well unless they have a couple of promotions.