Should Civ influences deteriorate over time?

[padillah]

I have finally got a decent sized game in here and I think this game is great.

One thing I don't like is the +/- doesn't go away, EVER.

I was playing Saladin and the English were on a medium sized continent with me and no one else. We got in a fight (note: never build cities between the AI capitol and other city, they get mad!) She took one of my cities (Bagdad) and I razed one of hers (it was two tiles over from where I wanted it).

Anyway, several thousand years later, like sometime in 1980 CE I'm doing some trading with her and I notice "-1 you razed one of our cities!"

WHAT?!? That was over 6000 years ago! Do I have to carry that around forever?

The growth over time is a cool thing but we need some deterioration over time as well. Maybe half as much as growth so that if you keep up good relations they can build and build. But if you let them go, they'll turn sour eventually. Negative feelings would go away eventually as well as good feelings that have not been "tended to" for a while. (I also noticed a "+1 You gave us tribute" which was from a few thousand years ago and quite old as well.)

Tom P.

[Aileron]

Absolutely they should deteriorate. I had "-3 you declared war on us" for 5000 years. This infinite AI memory seems to have been in every civ game I've played (Civ2, Civ3, Civ4, CtP1, CtP2). What's the deal!? Is this a bug or a "design decision"?

[Bill3000]

I agree - it's quite annoying.

[Vlad Antlerkov]

Yes, I think it'd be a good idea for the diplomatic effect of some action to be weighted by how far in the past it took-- and have it apply to both positive (gifts, acceding to demands) AND negative actions. (...which, rereading the OP, padillah seems to have addressed already. Oops.) What I have in mind is that all bonuses/penalties would have a half-life of some number of turns, that is, after X turns, the bonus/penalty is halved, after 2X turns it's 1/4 of what it was originally, etc., eventually decaying away to zero after 4X or 5X turns.

[LzPrst]

bah, whether bug or design. most likely the latter, its crappy design and civ4 is full of it. mod the game to make it bearable...

[Tiberius]

Some (-) should stay forever, or go away very-very slowly. Things like a war or razing cities should stay as negatives for a very long time, because this is how we react too, don't we? Who doesn't swear revenge when the AI razes one if his cities ?

In the same time I agree that certain negatives should go in time. I mean, something like "you traded with our enemy" doesn't make any sense after 3000 years.

LzPrst, this is why we post, to make it better. Saying that it's crappy design doesn't help. Good ideas help.

[alva]

"you traded with our enemy"

Things like this do go away, don't they?
It can sometimes take awhile but they most of the time,
they do go away eventually.

[Tiberius]

They do? I din't notice. It seemed to me that they stay forever. I will watch this more carefully.

[djpsychonaut]

Argument for diplomatic erosion

It seems to me that there should at least be the option of diplomatic erosion... Something like razing a city or frequent declaration of war is sometimes a concern between nations for many years in the real world, but it hardly ever drives policy in the real-world.

Take for example the Channel Tunnel (Chunnel) underneath the English Channel.... some hawks in Britain brought up France's militant past as a concern for the tunnel. They specifically referred to the Napoleonic Wars which happened almost two centuries ago (Defeat at Waterloo in 1815)... The Chunnel was still built and still operates today.

An example to look to would be the relatively close relations between France and Germany in recent years despite FIERCE hatred in WWI and WWII, and times before. Also, look at Japan and the US... you'd never think, given their close relations, that the US actually nuked TWO major Japanese cities. Given all this, I think there's a strong argument for diplomatic erosion.

Sure, maybe razing a city with a high level of culture should erode much slower than a recently settled one, but as seen with the Japan-US scenario, it seems like nations can get over their differences.

[Common Sensei]

The Civ4LeaderHeadInfos.xml file contains a section for each leader personality called MemoryDecay which seems to have randomization values for each diplomacy adjustment type. The decay chances seem to be identical for each leader, but it looks like something that can be changed to make say, Alexander never forget that you didn't help him in a war or Catherine forgive you fairly quickly for not giving her a freebie.

Right under it is also a section called MemoryAttitudePercent which seems to affect how much they care about each affront or each favor.

[LzPrst]

hmmm, seems to me like a game feature that wasnt implemented. so its not poor design, its deliberately leaving features out. expansion pack anyone?

I agree, I should be more constructive, but look at all the ideas that have been suggested since civ3. what has been implemented? we've been constructive for years. and the result? we get an unfinished poorly designed product. its not being disappointed thats got my knickers in a twist, its the degree. the potential vs the released product is so far from eachother that I've become bitter cynical and disillusioned.

[Shogun Gunner]

Voted "no".

Two words: Middle East

[Adagio]

The AI should defently be more forgivefull for many of the areas. I can understand why they don't like to forget that I razed 10 of their cities 3000 years ago, but I don't see a reason why they should still be angry at me for not helping them in a war 4000 years ago, or not giving them some tribute, or whatever
And I'd also say that their hatred for me attacking them should go slower down for each time I attack them (like if I attack them the first time, they have forgotten about it 50 turns later, but if I then attack them a second time, it'll take 75 turns before they forget)

Also in cases where I attack Civ A, which is Civ B's best friend, Civ B will automaticly hate me for this. What annoys me is if Civ B then later attacks Civ A, but they'll still hate me for having attacked them

[xxFlukexx]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
Voted "no".

Two words: Middle East

Hehe, I love your posts, Shogun Gunner, big fan big fan.

Some stuff does decay very slowly I've noticed or maybe all my games are running together and I'm confused, that's possible.

I dunno if AI should forgive you though if you raze a city, that's a big deal. If an AI attacks me I never forget, I still remember ol' shaka zulu from civ long long ago declaring war on me. Grrrrr I hate you shaka zulu, it got to the point that whenever I would see him I'd immediately make demands, it was a race to see who will get pissed off quicker.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
Voted "no".

Two words: Middle East

ditto.