I love you THIS much! (The diplomatic +/- system)

[Arkay]

Howdy to all the Apolyton smarty-types! I was sort of hoping to start the definitive thread on the diplomatic system. I find it terribly convenient to finally know what goes on in the mind of the ai in terms of diplomacy, but I have a tough time controlling it.

Sometimes your military punching-bag civ will be merely annoyed with you during full-out war due to a monstrous "You have wisely chosen your civics" bonus (I have heard of this being as high as 7)

Other times you will be trying to curry the favor of another civ and even after giving them a city and 10000 gold you only have a +4 from "Our trade relations have been fair and forthright” but they are still annoyed from 5 other minor grievances.

You can donate resources to another country, but they don’t really 'like' this, they just appreciate the years of resources after a while.

Also, I have seen where a civ was upset at my having fallen under the sway of a heathen religion (-1) but when they converted to my religion, they cared for their brothers and sisters of the faith (+5!!)

In short: What are all the bonuses and negatives, how high/low can they be, how long do the effects last, how do you get them to their maximum potential, and how can you generally control them?

[knighterrant]

I find it extremely helpful. More so that I can make better estimates on if someone is going to start a war with me at some point or not.

[Cort Haus]

I don't think you can get higher than +4 from gifts on the "trade relations have been fair and forthright" ledger, and quite frankly agreeing to one of their typically lopsided tech deals will earn a few points on that one anyway.

So I now only give one-off gifts when the trade ledger drops below +4 and they are behind in tech.

As you said, you have to supply resources for quite a long time to get a return, so don't expect to be able to sling a resource at someone as a quickie sweetener.

I would like to know what kind of deals trigger the "you traded with our enemies", and why this never ever seems to expire, how ever many thousands of years have passed. Do open borders consitute such an offence?

Free Religion gets rid of the 'heathen' penalty and 'faith-bro' bonus, but I wouldn't mind knowing why some hates are -1 and others -4 for similar offences.

[Footie Mad]

I tend to fall behind the average in number of soldiers, and every AI seems to see it as an invitation for them to try to push me around and make silly demands. Even the ones with a lower score come harassing.

[Fosse]

I would love to be able to see who everyone's "worst enemy" is. Sometimes it's obvious looking at the Diplomacy screen, but when a civ you want to be friends with is cautious with everyone... what to do? And does each Civ only have one worst enemy for diplomacy purposes?

I also would love to know what constitutes "trading" with that Worst enemy. I'm pretty sure open borders does, but what about gold for tech, or paying them tribute?

[swat-spas2]

Originally posted by Cort Haus

Free Religion gets rid of the 'heathen' penalty and 'faith-bro' bonus, but I wouldn't mind knowing why some hates are -1 and others -4 for similar offences.

The hates/likes for religion and civics are coded in the XML sheets and are based on the civ and leader you are specifically dealing with. Isabella likes you to share her religion for example. You can sorta tell based on what the civs will request you change to, or what they refuse to convert to.

[swat-spas2]

Originally posted by Footie Mad
I tend to fall behind the average in number of soldiers, and every AI seems to see it as an invitation for them to try to push me around and make silly demands. Even the ones with a lower score come harassing.

Build some troops every once in a while or set up a city or two to troop production for a long period of time. It sets up an army that you can later upgrade anyway when the time comes. You'll need it anyway if you want to do space wins, the AI tries to take you out if you wish to win that way.

[padillah]

Here's something I THINK I've noticed: The size of the gift is irrelevant.

If you gift them 10 gold each turn for 10 turns they feel the same as if you gifted them 1000 gold each turn for 10 turns.

I also think this extends to their demands: so long as you gift them something they will not hold it against you.

I know I have had Isabelle demand 1000 gold or Theology and I asked to renegotiate and gifted her 10 gold and she said OK and went on her merry way. I don't think I ever noticed a "-1 you refuse to give us tribute"

I'd like to test this concretely but my machine (and spare time) have been up and down lately. It's currently settled down so I might get some time to test this tonight, at least before the weekend.

Tom P.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Fosse
I also would love to know what constitutes "trading" with that Worst enemy. I'm pretty sure open borders does, but what about gold for tech, or paying them tribute?

I don't know about "tribute" but I'm pretty sure that trading someone gold for a technology is regarded as trading.

Tom P.

[quinalla]

Originally posted by Fosse
I would love to be able to see who everyone's "worst enemy" is. Sometimes it's obvious looking at the Diplomacy screen, but when a civ you want to be friends with is cautious with everyone... what to do? And does each Civ only have one worst enemy for diplomacy purposes?

I also would love to know what constitutes "trading" with that Worst enemy. I'm pretty sure open borders does, but what about gold for tech, or paying them tribute?

I don't know if there is an easier way to see it, but you can ask each leader in the "Let's talk about something else" screen what they think of the other leaders. I don't know about having only one worst enemy though.

As for what constitues trading, open borders and any ongoing deals (resources or gold per turn) definitely count. I am not sure if one time deals (tech for tech, tech for gold, etc.) count or not.

[Aileron]

Originally posted by Footie Mad
I tend to fall behind the average in number of soldiers, and every AI seems to see it as an invitation for them to try to push me around and make silly demands. Even the ones with a lower score come harassing.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat.

Originally posted by swat-spas2
Build some troops every once in a while or set up a city or two to troop production for a long period of time.

Thanks, I'll try that.

Originally posted by padillah
Here's something I THINK I've noticed: The size of the gift is irrelevant.

Really? It would be nice to find that out, because apparently it was a bug in previous versions of Civ which they said they fixed (can't remember where I read that though).

Originally posted by quinalla
I don't know if there is an easier way to see it, but you can ask each leader in the "Let's talk about something else" screen what they think of the other leaders. I don't know about having only one worst enemy though.

Click on the other leader's faces in the Foreign Advisor screen to see their relationships to other leaders, just like you see your relationship to other leaders.

As for worst enemies, maybe it's dynamic (who ever they are Annoyed/Furious with at the moment). Otherwise, if it's hard-coded, it would probably be in an XML file. I don't think Open Borders alone gives the "You traded with our worst enemies..." message. You need to have traded a tech/gold/resource with someone they don't like.

Have you found the "You declared war on us" message stays for the whole friggin game!? 3xxx BC to 2050 AD. Might as well mod it to say "We don't like you for something you did 5000 years ago".

[Arrian]

Free Religion gets rid of the 'heathen' penalty and 'faith-bro' bonus, but I wouldn't mind knowing why some hates are -1 and others -4 for similar offences.

Agreed.

The hates/likes for religion and civics are coded in the XML sheets and are based on the civ and leader you are specifically dealing with. Isabella likes you to share her religion for example.

It would be nice to have a table displayed somewhere, though.

IIRC, leaders like Elizabeth don't care much (-1) and Isabella, Saladin, etc. are likely to hate your guts (-4). I don't recall seeing any -2's or 3's.

-Arrian

[LongKnife56]

What's the minus number for "you've got a resource I don't have and I need?"

[inca911]

I'm guessing the AI civ leader's traits contribute to the size of their reaction. A religion civ should have a bigger negative if you aren't their religion or a bigger positive if you are. Wish I had time to test that right now. Maybe someone else will be able to confirm.

[TheArsenal]

Have you found the "You declared war on us" message stays for the whole friggin game!? 3xxx BC to 2050 AD. Might as well mod it to say "We don't like you for something you did 5000 years ago".

Amusingly fair, since I play this way. I can’t count the number of games where I’ve shaken my first and cursed an AI Civ who attacked me early when I was weak “You’ll pay, oh you just wait, how dearly you will pay!”

I’ve built entire games around revenge. And I’m certain I’m not alone.