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**spa** · November 17, 2005, 06:19

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=67523_England4.zip

Oh I uploaded my save file if anyone wants to try it out for themselves. Just hold the fleet of three galleons near Satricum on or off the fish if you want to see or not to see the Arab fleet.

EDIT: Make sure to move the workboat that's with the three galleons as well as it has now been shown that the AI can't tell the difference between naval units. It just knows wheather or not one is on top of the resource.

**Alphard** · November 17, 2005, 06:34

1. Wasn't there some tech that increased the naval units line of sight?

2. Could it be that terrain features are somehow involved and the LOS is calculated incorrectly and there is no cheat? like there is a peninsula just next to the resource and the AI comes in an angle from behind it. The buggy LOS hiding them from you but not you from them?

3. Whatever else.. stay open think of other reasons.

The reason why I am so doubtful about your discovery is that Civ 4 team has repeatedly told us that AI is not given abilities like see through Fog of War. Also in my current game AI ignored my totally defenseless capital and attacked a town that had defences although the towns were at more or less equal distance from them.

Finally.. If you are right.. sorry for doubting you and nice catch

**Harovan** · November 17, 2005, 07:52

I am pretty sure, that the AI does not only know, where your units are, but it can see the whole map through the fog of war also, just like in Civ3. I started a thread about this a while ago and also posted a savegame in it:

Apolyton Civilization Site

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142303

I did not load up your savegame yet (still at work), but in my own game I can not see a single reason (not religion, not direct unit sight), where the AI could gather the used data in a regular way.

Unless such explanations can be found, the repeatedly used statement of Solver and other beta testers, that the Civ4 does not have rule cheats (only boni) can hardly be considered true anymore. It is not a big deal and I can live with it, but why telling us it does not cheat if it does?

**vulture** · November 17, 2005, 07:58

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Unless such explanations can be found, the repeatedly used statement of Solver and other beta testers, that the Civ4 does not have rule cheats (only boni) can hardly be considered true anymore. It is not a big deal and I can live with it, but why telling us it does not cheat if it does?

There is always the possibility that it isn't meant to cheat, but due to a bug information the AI shouldn't have is making it in to the map of information the AI does have.

After all, Soren has said in interviews that one of the big problems with cheats is that they can often end up being counterproductive - he cited the AI knowing the map in Civ3 as an example IIRC, where in the first version you could postpone an AI invasion forever by swapping around 2 cities to have no defenders on alternate turns, and the AI forces would wander back and forth between them.

Based on Civ3, he wanted to avoid cheats for the AI because in practice all they often achieved was making the AI worse, once players figured out what was being done and how to exploit it.

(EDIT: having just checked SR's link, I notice that it is the exact exploit I mention here from Civ3 that he is describing in Civ4 - the one Soren specifically mentioned as something that worked to make the AI worse rather than better. I doubt that putting that in would be intentional for Civ4)

**Martinus** · November 17, 2005, 08:03

There are both naval unit promotions and technologies that increase a naval unit's line of sight.

**Ka Plewy** · November 17, 2005, 08:08

Re: AI Knows Where Your Units Are

Originally posted by spa

In my game the Arabs have declared war on me. It's an age of sail battle since I slowed tech down and it's an archipegalo map (I have my own island continent). The Arabs have a fleet of three frigates and three galleons that landed an invasion force in Setia, a city on an isolated island, that I then had to retake. Having unloaded the troops the Arab fleet then started to pillage my coast. To make them work for it, I moved three galleons down to sit on top of a fish resource off of Satricum. The Arabs don't want to fight my galleons so they ran away. The second my galleons move though they come back. I have verified this by sitting on the resource and not having the Arab fleet return and moving one square off of it and having the Arab fleet come back. It seems possible to tie up the Arab fleet forever by doing this (the AI's cheating becomes a bit of an exploit really when you know about it).

As I recall, in previous editions of Civ, the player could view the map in an pristine state (except for cities?) and see the resources on the map. I wouldn't exactly call this an exploit, because if you can do this, the AI should be able to do the same.

Edit: I left unsaid that there are a multitude of ways for the AI to get the map. You never stated that you never traded your map, and that you're absolutely 100% positive no AI discovered that square and traded their map, so you've really not proven your point.

**Harovan** · November 17, 2005, 08:22

Originally posted by vulture
After all, Soren has said in interviews that one of the big problems with cheats is that they can often end up being counterproductive - he cited the AI knowing the map in Civ3 as an example IIRC, where in the first version you could postpone an AI invasion forever by swapping around 2 cities to have no defenders on alternate turns, and the AI forces would wander back and forth between them.

I don't have many data about that, as I play my games not to check for cheats, but to have fun, and hence do investigations and keep saved evidence only, if I see something suspect happening, without however provoking it. I hope, that we will find more information, either backing the assumptions or, which would be better, explaining the mysteries.

That said, I did not find evidence yet of the AI having map advantage in land wars.

**Junuxx** · November 17, 2005, 08:22

Re: Re: AI Knows Where Your Units Are

Originally posted by Ka Plewy

As I recall, in previous editions of Civ, the player could view the map in an pristine state (except for cities?) and see the resources on the map. I wouldn't exactly call this an exploit, because if you can do this, the AI should be able to do the same.

Edit: I left unsaid that there are a multitude of ways for the AI to get the map. You never stated that you never traded your map, and that you're absolutely 100% positive no AI discovered that square and traded their map, so you've really not proven your point.

No, that's not at all what he meant.
Of course the Aras have explored that tile in the past, and yes, they know and are allowed to know that it's got a resource.
But what they are NOT supposed to know is whether the player has a stack of galleons on top of it, UNLESS they got units of their own near.
Now his point is that the AI does NOT have units near, but still seems to know whether there are galleons guarding the resource.

**Ka Plewy** · November 17, 2005, 08:28

Re: Re: Re: AI Knows Where Your Units Are

Originally posted by Junuxx

No, that's not at all what he meant.
Of course the Aras have explored that tile in the past, and yes, they know and are allowed to know that it's got a resource.
But what they are NOT supposed to know is whether the player has a stack of galleons on top of it, UNLESS they got units of their own near.
Now his point is that the AI does NOT have units near, but still seems to know whether there are galleons guarding the resource.

Sorry, shouldn't post with a bad head cold. Well, someone else mentioned promotions. I might've caught it if the original poster mentioned how many squares away the units were, and whether it could be determined that visibility could be due to a promotion.

**Harovan** · November 17, 2005, 08:34

At least in my example the distance in question was huge, something in the dimension of 20 tiles. No original game promotion could possibly give such a sight radius.

**Ninja** · November 17, 2005, 08:37

Well, Ka Plewy, you are free to download his save and check it out for yourself!

**Ka Plewy** · November 17, 2005, 08:44

Originally posted by Ninja
Well, Ka Plewy, you are free to download his save and check it out for yourself!

I don't have it, yet. However, even if I did, would I be able to determine the promotion of unit I don't own?

**Grumbold** · November 17, 2005, 08:46

I'd agree that the AI has no obvious knowledge of city defences, so its perfectly possible to meet their invasion route with defences stripped away from more distant cities. In the case of these tiles I suspect that unfortunately the AI still does have troop movements affecting its target priority. Perhaps its easier to code that way than to code a 'hover and scout' approach for all potential resource targets.

**Bhruic** · November 17, 2005, 10:26

Hmm, I downloaded it, moved the three Galleons off the square, and the Arabs didn't move towards it at all.

Anyone else tried it yet?

Bh

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